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[DonTom]

The small pin in the output (Anderson connector) cable of the Zero Quick Chargers have 3.4 VDC (between it and  the thick main negative). Can somebody here explains what that does?

I tried one quick charger with the small pin normally but  with another QC in parallel  at the same time with no small pin connected in a homemade Y cable. I assumed the 3.4 VDC from the one charger will activate whatever it does inside the bike for both QC's to work. But the QC without the pin in the cable will not do anything, even with the 3.4 VDC being supplied by the other QC.

Is there some type of two way communication between the Q-charger and the bike, or what is happening?

I am just curious how it works. I have the small pins on order, but I thought I would try to cheat a bit first, but it didn't work.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[DonTom]

It looks like I just discovered my own answer.

In the stock "Y" cable, the small pins are NOT in parallel. There are two small pins, looks like one is an enable 1, the other a separate  enable 2.  And a quick look at the schematic seems to show the same--separate connections for two pins-- but the charger only uses one small pin, but each is a totally different connection.

I assume that means only the first two chargers need the 3.4 VDC to activate  each line. That should also mean that the 3rd and 4th Q- chargers should NOT need these pins in the next Y cable used.

I don't have three Q-chargers at this location to confirm, but I do in Reno.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

I think this is relevant:
- https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Advanced_Modifications#Charger_Y-Cable
- which links to the more basic https://zeromanual.com/wiki/Chargers#Combining_Chargers

Could you provide feedback about whether that covers what you were asking or if there's something unclear or missing? Thanks.

[DonTom]

Could you provide feedback about whether that covers what you were asking or if there's something unclear or missing? Thanks.

I sure will, espcally when I read that part about three chargers will not work. I expect three QCs to work fine, with no small pins in the last cable, but I could be wrong.

I am now charging in Truckee, CA. I am almost back in Reno.

I was kicked out of Boreal Springs! I can tell that story later in a different thread.
 Do not expect to be able to charge at Boreal Springs until perhaps late August!

-Don- Truckee (train station), CA

[DonTom]

"So, 1, 2, or 4 chargers can be supported, but not 3... "

Not true!

Using two STOCK Zero Y cables with three chargers, all working (total wattage=4,200W, says the Zero Voltage app (includes the on-board).

Here is a  photo of my three chargers working normally on two stock Zero Y cables:




-Don-  Reno, NV

[DonTom]

The small pins are still needed in the last cable, even if activated by the 3.4 from another charger on the same cable.  Seems there is some type of signal that needs to come back from the bike when that 3.4 volts is sent from the QC--or perhaps it has to go low and be detected as such at the Q-charger.

I don't want to cut up my Zero stock cables to figure out exactly what is happening, but when I receive my small pins I will make up a test cable to find out exactly what is going on.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Okay, keep us posted as you learn more. Thanks!

[Shadow]

The concern with 3 QuiQ chargers may be that there are not all equal paths of current to output.
To make the paths the same you would want:

QuiQ \___
QuiQ /   \
          \____ Output
          /
QuiQ \___/
n/c  /


However you then have a dangling n/c high voltage connector (which could be a liability if read as a supported configuration by OE).

Just using "Y" cables you cannot make an equal current path to output for three QuiQ modules *and* use all of the connections to avoid a dangling extra HV connector.

I cannot think of any other obvious technical reason why 2-or-4 is the supported configuration and not including 3.

[talon]

I have read every Anderson multipole connector datasheet at some point in my work. I believe somewhere the SBS75X (and SBS line of connectors with the curved finger holds on the sides) is regarded as generally "finger-safe". I read this as pretty much the same as a household receptacle. If properly recognized/marked, it is "reasonably safe" albeit a bit easier for someone to try to jam something in the end due to more space. My only fears would be *kids* or a pin not being seated all the way on the spring/poor crimp and popping out with live voltage. I don't worry about it when charging in private but am a perfectionist and make all my own charging adapters/cables.

[DonTom]

I finally got around to doing the experiment on the small pins in the DeltaQ quick chargers.

Some were trying to figure out how to turn these things on by using a resistor or DC voltage but nobody has been successful. I just discovered why. It's MUCH more complex than I ever expected.

It is not possible to do with resistors or simply a steady DC voltage.

Here are the facts:

It's a weird type of signal.

I took the top cover of a Q-charger off so I could tap into the white wire which goes to the small pins in the cable.

There is only a black, red and white wire inside the charger itself that connects to to four pin connector at the bike. The black and red is the HV. The white  is NOT in reference to black but to the Q-charger chassis ground. The black is NOT charger ground. The white (inside the charger) goes to the small pins in the bike's connector.

It is a signal that goes at 1 CPS from -18 VDC to +35 VDC.  There is also a 120 hz signal that is riding on the DC 1 CPS signal.  But since it is exactly 120 hz in frequency, it makes me think it could just be harmonic 60 hz ripple and the 1-cycle DC is really doing the job. The 120 hz is  also rather low in voltage, so I assume this ripple is meaningless, riding on the one hz real signal.

Notice the center line on my scope. That is zero volts. The waveform that you see below the line (-18 VDC) switches to the positive (above the line to +35 VDC) and back to negative -18 VDC every second. Would have been better on a You-tube, but this is easy enough to explain.

So the average technical person will NOT be able to activate the  charger away from the bike.   It would take a very qualified electronics engineer to duplicate the signal. And it's not worth the trouble.

One more  interesting thing is that this  -18/+35 VDC at one CPS (I am not going to call that AC, even though technically it is)  does NOT change when the bike reaches 100% SOC and is fully charged (and contactor open).  It only disappears when I turn off my Tesla  Wall Connector that I am using with a Tesla-Tap to convert to J-1772.  I expect the charger turns off when the red lead hits the high voltage top and has nothing to do with the small pin. 

I also assume  the purpose of the small pins is to verify the correct type of charger or chargers are being used by the bike before the charger will turn on.   IOW, not a simple thing to activate to turn the Q-chargers on away from the bike.   The 1-CPS signal will have to be on continuously for the charger to be on.

If the 120 hz signal  is noise, the 120  hz  is NOT coming from what I am doing (ie, electrical noise in the air picked up by the wires), but from the charger circuity itself. I was able to prove that much by leaving everything connected and turning off the main power before my Tesla Wall Connector and getting a total loss of that 120 hz signal, (as well as the 1 CPS signal, of course).


See attached photos of what I just now completed.

 I find it hopeless to be able to use the  Delta Q-charger for anything other than what the charger was designed for. Perhaps with a schematic of the Q-charger, it would be possible to force the charger on by going past where the one  cps signal is required. But again, not worth  the hassle.

I see no reason to go any further with this experiment from this point.

-Don-  Reno, NV 

[talon]

Diginow's older charge control units (SCv2?) utilized those two lines for the "contactor keep-closed" signal. I had assumed it was just a pull-down resistor or something, but perhaps every time I see resistors mentioned people are discussing J-plugs and not the bike's contactor. I'll scope it as well

[DonTom]

Diginow's older charge control units (SCv2?) utilized those two lines for the "contactor keep-closed" signal. I had assumed it was just a pull-down resistor or something, but perhaps every time I see resistors mentioned people are discussing J-plugs and not the bike's contactor. I'll scope it as well

Then the DigiNow people should really understand what that signal does. Aren't they only two and both in this forum? I wish they would jump in here.

While I see the signal clearly, I have no idea what it is really doing or even if it originates in the bike or the charger. Those things I have to guess at.

And please post here what you see, I expect you will find the same. I used the scope because I was expecting data to be a possibility but what I discovered was the one CPS signal.

But why is the signal still there after the contractor opens at full charge, if it is what controls the contactor?

I used both the scope as well as an analog  DC voltmeter because 1 CPS is slow enough to measure on a DC voltmeter.

1/3 negative and around 2/3rd positive voltage on each cycle. Not what I was expecting to see.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[NoMoreIdeas]

DonTom - thank you for sharing your work! I recently tried doing a discovery of what that pin does too and saw the same ocolating voltage you are seeing at 1 second intervals when I put a scope on it. I did read the datasheet of the quiq charger and there are dummy lights on the charger that indicate that its not charging due to over temperature of the battery, so the bike has to signal the charger somehow as to what is going on through that pin. I'm a hobbyist and no electrical engineer, but I couldnt really make sense of why the signal would be like that.  Definitely not what I was expecting to see either. It would be nice if someone should shed some clarity on this, I assume reaching out to Zero would be pointless?

[DonTom]

DonTom - thank you for sharing your work! I recently tried doing a discovery of what that pin does too and saw the same ocolating voltage you are seeing at 1 second intervals when I put a scope on it. I did read the datasheet of the quiq charger and there are dummy lights on the charger that indicate that its not charging due to over temperature of the battery, so the bike has to signal the charger somehow as to what is going on through that pin. I'm a hobbyist and no electrical engineer, but I couldnt really make sense of why the signal would be like that.  Definitely not what I was expecting to see either. It would be nice if someone should shed some clarity on this, I assume reaching out to Zero would be pointless?

I am glad you could verify what I was seeing! It was so weird that I wanted others who had the test equipment to see it for themselves.

There is no ground pin in the QC cable, but there is a ground path from the QC to the bike frame via the 3 pin AC cords. So I tried one more experiment  to see what would happen to the alarm if I only used a QC and ran my own ground wire from the QC to the center pin of the AC (ground)  inlet on the bike. That made no difference to the alarm on the bike, it stayed on.

Anyway, our experiment has only given us more questions. One of them being where the 1 CPS signal originates--in the bike or the charger. Perhaps I will see what happens if I cut the white wire and see if I can tell which direction it comes from. Or perhaps the signal will stop as soon as I do that, I won't know until I try that.  But either way, do we really care?

I don't mind cutting the white wire in the charger and then repairing it after I check it. I can also then see what happens if the signal is missing.  So perhaps I will do a little more experimenting with this some day.

I was expecting to see possible data on that small pin. The 1 CPS signal I never expected, that goes from +35  positive voltage  to  -18 negative voltage every half second.

Sounds like you probably have it right, that what we are seeing  is related to overheating info. But there has to be other info as well, such as what turns on and off the charger. But that could really be on the red lead for that, checking its voltage. If the one CPS signal is only for overheating, it explains why the signal stayed on when the bike was full charged with the contactor open. The fact that the contactor was open with the 1 CPS signal still there, makes me believe that the 1 CPS signal originates in the QC, not the bike.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[NoMoreIdeas]

I will say I dont have a quiq charger, and my readings where between the small pin and the ground on the charge connector and what it looked like off, on and with just the onboard enabled. It was 1/2 second intervals, I havent looked at the pictures I had taken of my scope in a while. It's pretty hot here, 'fast' charging today with a TC-HK-J 3.3kw unit and I was able to heat my battery to 111F, which is above the the 109F Zero says the charger will start tapering at. I wasnt able to get a scope on it today, but i'll try this week and see if there is some kind of different signal at that temperature.