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Author Topic: SR/F and charging thoughts  (Read 2010 times)

GaryArt1

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SR/F and charging thoughts
« on: May 14, 2019, 06:33:24 PM »

So as I sit here patiently waiting on my first electric motorcycle, the SR/F, my mind wanders on random thoughts.  The latest is on charging the SR/F.  This is my opinion only.  Keep in mind, this is my first experience with electric bikes so much of what I relate to is in my previous ICE bikes and overall life experiences.  Feel free to correct me where I am wrong.

1. Level 1: This year they doubled the rate of level one charging.  It went from approx 8 hours to 4.  I am really glad they improved this.  No matter where we live, L1 charging is the most prevelent, everyone has an outdoor outlet. It will be nice when I go to visit someone, I can plug in and charge up.  With the increased charging rate, even a few hour visit can really boost the bike’s charge.

2. Level 2: This is now standard on the SR/F, where you used to have to buy the charge tank.  So it takes about 2 hours which is not great but not really bad.  If you are trying to use the bike for a long trip, yes 2 hour breaks are tough.  It you pull into a charging station in a mall parking lot, grab lunch and do some shopping, 2 hours is nothing.  Level 2 chargers are everywhere these days, at least in the Northeast US. They are cheap to purchase for home use.  I have one of these at my house and am glad that I can get home from a ride, hook up, grab a bite to eat and go back out riding.  I am very glad this is standard on the SR/F and can’t comprehend Harley’s decision to have Level 2 charging on Livewire charge at the rate of L1.

3. Level 3: Now here is where all the controversy comes in.  So I know it would be nice to bring the 2 hours down to under an hour.  This would be a must to level the playing feild with ICE bikes for longer trips.  I know in parts of the country these are more prevelant but in the Northeast right now, they are few and far between.  You will also not have this charging at your home being the expense of the charger.  At first I was hoping for the SR/F to have the option of L3.  I figured it would future proof the bike.  No matter what, as electric vehicles become more prevelent, fast charging will become more widespread. 

Now here comes the kicker.  Lately I have been thinking I am glad it doesn’t have L3.  Now here me out.  I have always been one to upgrade, mess with and repair my toys are my own.  Unless it is a major job, as long as I can find instructions, I plan on doing some of the repairs on the SR/F myself.  Here’s the thing.  From my days doing construction I had learned that doing electrical work will get you shocked once in a while.  Do enough of it and it is unavoidable.  I also learned that 120 volts will wake you up and make you know you are alive but rarely much more.  Now working on 220 volt and higher may actually be very dangerous.  My understanding  is that in order to have L3 charging, you are talking about 220 volts and over.  I am not sure if I would be comfortable tinkering on a 300 volt bike.  Especially in the garage where no one would here me scream and hit the floor.   It would probably take a day or so for my family to realize I never came in from the garage.  So if I am correct in my facts, I am kind of glad Zero stayed with the lower voltage and L2 charging.  Maybe in a few years when I am older and don’t want to do repairs myself, and L3 charging is everywhere, I may regret it.  But right now I am happy with Zero’s decision.
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alko

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Re: SR/F and charging thoughts
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2019, 07:31:56 PM »

Not sure why or how you would get electricuted charging the bike.
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Fran K

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Re: SR/F and charging thoughts
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2019, 07:45:32 PM »

1)  wouldn't you need to plug into two separate 120 volt "everyone's outdoor outlet" to double charging rate?  Fx draws 10 amps, larger ones draw 13 or 15 don't they?

2)  Harley is most likely not going to sell a lot of the bikes right away.  Level 3 will most likely be available for the majority of the bike's useable lifespan.  Perhaps reliability issues with on board chargers and fear of getting some name like b-last created. (Buell Blast)

3)  Level the playing field with ICE, Are we discussing solo or a pack of motorcycles?
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GaryArt1

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Re: SR/F and charging thoughts
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2019, 08:11:12 PM »

Not sure why or how you would get electricuted charging the bike.
I am not worried about charging it.  I am thinking more of repairs and any upgrades that iI would be able to do myself.  My dealer is not really that convenient and if I can do something myself.  So one option I would be thinking of is upgrading to the power tank.  I’m not sure if that could be done myself (people on here said it is simple) or if self installed it would void the warranty.  But if doable, this maybe something I would attempt over the winter.
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DonTom

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Re: SR/F and charging thoughts
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2019, 08:25:36 PM »

Not sure why or how you would get electricuted charging the bike.
Yep. That would be difficult to do even if one tried. The juice is not even turned on until the supply  is actually connected to the vehicle.

Perhaps the most dangerous are the bikes with the 120 VAC side inlet as that that can be hot before connected unlike the other levels. My understanding is the SR/F does not even have that side AC inlet.

-Don-  Auburn, CA
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2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Kawasaki Versys 650 LT
2017 Blk/Gold HD Road Glide Ultra
2017 Org Zero DS ZF 6.5/(now is 7.2)
2017 Red Zero SR ZF13 w/ Pwr Tank
2020 Energica EVA SS9
2023 Energica Experia LE
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David S

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Re: SR/F and charging thoughts
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2019, 08:39:26 PM »

They did not double the level 1 charging rate, this isn't possible from a level 1 source. If you plug the SRF into a wall outlet, it will still take about 8 hours to charge at roughly 1.3kw. The 4 hour time you mentioned is the base level 2 charger at 3kw. You need a L2 charger to get that time.

Also I think trying to "future proof" these bikes is kind of a silly idea. The EV market is evolving quickly, i think manufactures should build bikes for today, which is why i love how zero went with a good L2 option. In the future when there are abundant fast chargers, the rest of the technology will have improved too and people will want a new bike.
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gborgan

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Re: SR/F and charging thoughts
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2019, 08:43:10 PM »

GaryArt1...
Level 1 is still around 8 hours according to the manual. “Mode 1” is European spec. That’s 4.5 hours, same as US Level 2. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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GaryArt1

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Re: SR/F and charging thoughts
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2019, 09:02:42 PM »

GaryArt1...
Level 1 is still around 8 hours according to the manual. “Mode 1” is European spec. That’s 4.5 hours, same as US Level 2. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Got it.  Thanks.  I knew I learn more from you guys.  I thought the standard SR/F could pull more from 120v than the 2019s but I now see the difference.  Now if you had say a 220v 30 amp dryer or stove outlet available, would there be a way to use the supplied power cord to charge faster (in the US) or is this cord just for slow 120v charging?
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2020 Blue Zero SR/F Premium
2005 Suzuki Boulevard C50T

alko

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Re: SR/F and charging thoughts
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2019, 09:24:50 PM »

Not sure why or how you would get electricuted charging the bike.
Yep. That would be difficult to do even if one tried. The juice is not even turned on until the supply  is actually connected to the vehicle.

Perhaps the most dangerous are the bikes with the 120 VAC side inlet as that that can be hot before connected unlike the other levels. My understanding is the SR/F does not even have that side AC inlet.

-Don-  Auburn, CA

Ouch! That would hurt. I guess someone could stick their finger into that charge socket on the side of the bike.  Glad sr/f did away with that.
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DonTom

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Re: SR/F and charging thoughts
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2019, 10:23:42 PM »

Quote from: GaryArt1 link=topic=9000.msg77225#msg77225
Got it.  Thanks.  I knew I learn more from you guys.  I thought the standard SR/F could pull more from 120v than the 2019s but I now see the difference.  Now if you had say a 220v 30 amp dryer or stove outlet available, would there be a way to use the supplied power cord to charge faster (in the US) or is this cord just for slow 120v charging?
I don't know about the supplied power cord, but there are ways to use a drier outlet, such as a drier outlet to J1772 adapter.

-Don-  Auburn, CA
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1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Kawasaki Versys 650 LT
2017 Blk/Gold HD Road Glide Ultra
2017 Org Zero DS ZF 6.5/(now is 7.2)
2017 Red Zero SR ZF13 w/ Pwr Tank
2020 Energica EVA SS9
2023 Energica Experia LE
2023 Zero DSR/X

chrisho

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Re: SR/F and charging thoughts
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2019, 02:44:36 AM »

level 3 sounds nice but to be honest you are up against possibly getting to a site and all slots are taken let alone the range really the SR/F boasts isn't going to make a charger speed difference amount to much. if you cannot go where you want it does not matter how fast you can charge
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af1 racing

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Re: SR/F and charging thoughts
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2019, 04:16:02 AM »

also note that Level 3 is a DC-DC direct charging method......not a "more than 220VAC" way.   You wont be installing a Level 3 charger at your house.

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DonTom

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Re: SR/F and charging thoughts
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2019, 08:00:51 AM »

also note that Level 3 is a DC-DC direct charging method......not a "more than 220VAC" way.   You wont be installing a Level 3 charger at your house.
Pile up a bunch of external  quick chargers and there is your DC to DC charging. But only around 117 VDC.

And I wonder if that qualifies as level 3 charging . . . Pile up enough chargers to charge at 1C or even a bit more, if the Zero batteries can handle it.

FWIW, I use a Tesla Wall Connector going to the Quick Chargers with an J-1772 adapter.

-Don-  Reno, NV
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1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Kawasaki Versys 650 LT
2017 Blk/Gold HD Road Glide Ultra
2017 Org Zero DS ZF 6.5/(now is 7.2)
2017 Red Zero SR ZF13 w/ Pwr Tank
2020 Energica EVA SS9
2023 Energica Experia LE
2023 Zero DSR/X

Doug S

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Re: SR/F and charging thoughts
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2019, 08:04:26 PM »

Zero's going to have to do a nearly complete redesign of their drivetrain to support level 3 charging. Not only is their battery pack voltage too low (I understand their reasoning for using a low battery voltage, but the industry has gone the other way), but they didn't design the battery pack for adequate cooling in the 1C++ range, and the cell they selected isn't rated for it anyhow.

These aren't things that will be solved by any amount of incremental improvement. It's a major redesign. I think Zero would be well-advised to do it sooner rather than later. L3 charging may not be critical today, but it's not going to be long before they won't be able to sell an electric vehicle without it.
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NEW2elec

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Re: SR/F and charging thoughts
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2019, 09:51:37 PM »

Doug S said it best with the fewest words, just like an engineer, huh.

GaryArt1, yeah way back when I was faced with cruel reality that you can't pull more than about 1.3kws from a house outlet even though they offer a 3kw charger with the bike.  Feels like a kick in the gut but you'll recover. 
Live with the bike for a while and see if you just can't live without level 2 charging from your home, then look at adding a Nema 14-50 RV style outlet and go off that.  That will likely be the fastest home option they will offer for decades to come.

For now (but "now" may be a very short amount of time) level 2 is a good way for most of the country to charge these bikes for longer but not super long trips.  The CCS plug gives you both options (a J1772 plug with DC on top) and will likely be the leader in fast charging for the next few years at least. 
Note: Harley has a CCS inlet but not the level 2 charger so just level 3 DC charging for that one.  Yes, it's a head scratcher.

MVetter has a nice write up in the General Discussion section about a race with high level 2 charging Zero vs level 3 on an Energica
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