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[NEW2elec]

+1
That's why the thread is called "leap of faith". They really need to put out more info and unless they are waiting for a certain day for some unknown reason it's one of the worst launch missteps I've seen.

Hatfield talked about this "type" of bike ever since the LS218 really hit the spotlight years ago, and with just a few weeks before he says they will start to deliver bikes we know almost nothing about the "owning" of a Strike.

[NEW2elec]

Well there is an open house for Lightning per ButchtheBARFdude on the events section.
I didn't know it was for Lightning until I read the post so I thought I'd link it here.

http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=9131.0

[mistasam]

I saw that on BARF, but didn't hear about it in an update from Lightning.  It would coincide with the planned delivery of Strike #1, though!  So maybe they'll have a few of them there that you could see.  If you go, let me know if there's a test bike.   I wish I could be there 

I talked to Jojo yesterday (Richard's wife and COO of the company) and she said they'll be announcing paint choices soon.  Sounds like everything is on schedule!

[ultrarnr]

So a guy over on the Strike thread on advrider.com site checks out Lightning on a site called Glassdoor. Glassdoor is a web site where employees can rate their employee for the benefit of job seekers. There are seven reviews of Lightning, all but one are terrible. The short story is Lightning doesn't seem like a very nice place to work and if you want high quality people you have to pay for them. Here is the link to the full post. https://advrider.com/f/threads/lightning-strike.1362769/page-5   I think this helps explain why Lightning may be having some of the issues it is having.

[Richard230]

So a guy over on the Strike thread on advrider.com site checks out Lightning on a site called Glassdoor. Glassdoor is a web site where employees can rate their employee for the benefit of job seekers. There are seven reviews of Lightning, all but one are terrible. The short story is Lightning doesn't seem like a very nice place to work and if you want high quality people you have to pay for them. Here is the link to the full post. https://advrider.com/f/threads/lightning-strike.1362769/page-5   I think this helps explain why Lightning may be having some of the issues it is having.

To me, those comments on AVrider seem right on.  However, what has always been my concern is the advertised price for the various models of the Strike. It just doesn't seem possible that the Strike can be sold with the claimed features, specifications and components as in the original announcement at the prices announced and allow lightning to make a profit and stay in business. (The story of the death of Alta Motors continues to weigh on me.) Either the Strike will have to have a substantially increased MSRP, or the bike will arrive with lower-level components and less performance and range.

If I were pricing the Strike, I would price the low-end model at at least $15K, the mid-range model at $20K and the top of the line version at $30K, based upon the originally advertised features and components. 

[mistasam]

They're keeping the cost down mostly by manufacturing the main components in China, but also by not having any rider aids.  No traction control, no electronic suspension, no ABS (as far as I know).. so it seems to me like a very bare-bones race bike with lights, which sounds amazing  The dash is an off the shelf AIM racing dash, which probably also saved them time and money, and they have experience using them on the LS218.

I'm sure if it cost them more money to produce these bikes, they'd ask for more.  They totally can, considering the price of a Zero SR.  The way I see it, electrics can't stay expensive forever.  Even Energica found a way to cut $10k off the price of their bikes without losing money, so Lightning must have as well.  We'll have to wait and see, though.  Just a few more weeks until the open house!

[ducksesn]

On a reply from Lightning to my email inquiry about the Strike, it was stated that the initial production models of the Strike for the US would not have ABS--for a variety of reasons.  Lightning does plan to include/introduce ABS and riding aids/modes (that modulate torque) on the next model year of the Strike.

[NEW2elec]

Yeah, you have to have ABS to sell in Europe, which I'm sure they want to do.

[wavelet]

Yeah, you have to have ABS to sell in Europe, which I'm sure they want to do.

ABS might become a requirement on US bikes sooner rather than later.

I doubt the extra retail cost of adding it on a mass-produced bike is anywhere the $1000 mentioned in the link, after many years that such systems have been available, provided the bike is designed with it in mind in the first place (granted, Lightning might not have enough resources to do this).

In fact, this German study from 2008 (PDF, English language starts on p.4) puts the cost at 120 Euros in 2015 (and less if ABS would become mandatory, as it has in the EU).

[Richard230]

I note that the new step-thru Honda Super Cub has ABS, along with keyless ignition and a rather fancy LCD display.  All for under $4K USD.

[wavelet]

They're keeping the cost down mostly by manufacturing the main components in China, but also by not having any rider aids.  No traction control, no electronic suspension, no ABS (as far as I know).. so it seems to me like a very bare-bones race bike with lights, which sounds amazing  The dash is an off the shelf AIM racing dash, which probably also saved them time and money, and they have experience using them on the LS218.

It still doesn't make sense; looking at the Carbon model, they purport to have a large battery, expensive suspension & brakes, full carbon-fibre fairing, and L1, L2 and L3 chargers, and liquid cooling; all that at a very small weight increase over the midrange model, and on motorcycles, low weight --> expensive.
I doubt that dash is that cheap even if it's off the shelf -- as a racing part, it's not a high-volume item to begin with.

Even Energica found a way to cut $10k off the price of their bikes without losing money, so Lightning must have as well. 

Not necessarily. Recall Energica lowered prices by $5K or so when it found it wasn't selling bikes at their planned pricing? I've seen an estimate that they're subsidizing bikes by about that amount each, to gain a toehold in the market which is important in these early days. The claim is they can do so (up to a point) since they have a wealthy corporate parent -- but I don't think Lightning has equivalent pockets.

[ultrarnr]

wavelet, Energica dropped their prices by 10K and made a lot of options standard. They realized the market for 35K bikes is pretty small. Have never heard the claim about the parent company subsidizing the bikes though. If that were true then the prices would have to go back up at some point and sales will fall. I think they just have much slimmer profit margins than they had before.

When you look at all the questions that are being brought up about the Strike and how this is coming to market and then view the comments on Glassdoor.com it becomes a bit clearer that Lightning has serious issues. If you are trying to screw over your employees all the time it may very well be the case that the Strike has a 150 volt system and isn't going to charge on CCS as they claim. It would be very easy to make a mistake on a spec like this as it goes forward through production and not get caught until it is too late. Sometimes you get what you pay for and that applies to people as well.

[wavelet]

wavelet, Energica dropped their prices by 10K and made a lot of options standard. They realized the market for 35K bikes is pretty small. Have never heard the claim about the parent company subsidizing the bikes though. If that were true then the prices would have to go back up at some point and sales will fall. I think they just have much slimmer profit margins than they had before.

Possible of course, I have no inside info or secret sources 
It's just that with the very small numbers Energica currently sell, it's not really volume production -- as far as I know, they're essentially handmade. ( is their combined HQ / R&D facility / factory / European distribution center / showroom / museum)
Nothing wrong with that while sales numbers are still low, but it's unlikely they can get volume discount on components, and they do use high-end ones,not to mention lots of features being standard (CCS DC etc.)
Without economies of scale on parts & assembly (Northern Italy is pretty expensive labor-wise, and the volumes don't justify automation AFAICS), I doubt they're making profit.
Early growth is also expensive w.r.t. distribution costs -- a dealership needs the same training whether they sell 3-4 bike a year or 40.
As can be seen from their investor presentation which includes a timeline, their corporate parent (CRP Group) funded development of an electric racer for several years, and then development of the Ego as a sportbike, before founding Energica as an internal startup.

It would be very easy to make a mistake on a spec like this as it goes forward through production and not get caught until it is too late.

That's something I don't get -- if they have CCS DC charging, someone at Lightning designed it (or specced it for an external partner to design).
That person has to know the basics of the standard, don't they? How could any engineer (whether or not formally trained) capable of designing a high-performance electric drivetrain not take into account the charging requirements?

[Richard230]

The Energica dealer that I regularly visit told me that when the company dropped their prices in the U.S. by about $10K in 2017, they were able to do so by selling "carbon credits" in the California "cap and trade" market.  Apparently, there is a lot of money to be made selling pollution credits to big corporations like GM, utility companies, Big Oil, etc. if you know how to play the game.

However, I have also read comments in articles saying that they are also being subsidized by the parent company, probably through technical and buying power assistance.

[wavelet]

The Energica dealer that I regularly visit told me that when the company dropped their prices in the U.S. by about $10K in 2017, they were able to do so by selling "carbon credits" in the California carbon credit market.  Apparently, there is a lot of money to be made selling pollution credits to big corporations like GM, utility companies, Big Oil, etc. if you know how to play the game.

However, I have also read comments in articles saying that they are also being subsidized by the parent company, probably through technical and buying power assistance.

Interesting -- I didn't know carbon credit were applied to motorcycles.
An area where Energica's parent, CRP, apparently gave them significant assistance was additive 3D printing.

Anyway, we're getting a bit offtopic here... Looks like we'll have to be patient and wait to see what Lightning actually offers.