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Author Topic: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF  (Read 1908 times)

MostlyBonkers

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2019, 02:13:54 AM »

I guess I'm kind of on the fence about whether there are "enough" of the DC charging stations yet to really make DC charging mandatory on Zero's bikes. OTOH, it is pretty clear that the number of them is growing fast, and if the lack of DC charging isn't a disadvantage yet, it will be before long.

On yet another hand, how hard will it be for Zero to add the capability later? A couple of high-current wires to the battery (or the BMS or wherever), some electronics in a module to interface with the charging station, mount it somewhere reasonably accessible, DC charging port.

Is there some reason it would be harder than that to add it on to a bike that doesn't ship with it? I'm not familiar with all the DC charging standards, is Zero's battery voltage too low for others the way it is for some or the CHAdeMo stations?

I've also been thinking along similar lines to you Doug.  Would it be difficult to design and manufacture a Rosetta Stone that sits between the low voltage battery pack and the high voltage rapid DC charger?  A device that interfaces with the charger at 3-400 volts and handles the communication. It would then transform the input voltage down to something the BMS is happy with.  However, we'd still be limited by the 1C charge rate, so the Zero could only pull 12-13kW from the charger.

Here in Europe I think there are a reasonable amount of rapid chargers that can output around 21kW AC via a Mennekes plug.  The Renault Zoe relies on them.  It does seem that Zero have provided the best fast charging option possible with 12kW AC considering their battery technology.
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MVetter

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2019, 02:25:52 AM »


As soon as you get off the motorway network, rapid chargers get harder to find. That's why I still believe that it's important to have something like a 200 mile range in a car or at least 150 on a bike.  Charging anxiety was the biggest factor in my getting rid of my Kia Soul EV six months before the lease was up.  Long trips just weren't practical.

Right, and electric motorcycles aren't quite there yet for touring, either. I recently looked at a proposed trip to Vegas from Monterey Bay. I gave myself 65 miles between charges on PlugShare to be safe; it would require 8 stops including J1772, Tesla Destination, and Nema 14-50 stations. This is not something the average person is going to want to do or think about. I, on the other hand, really want to do it. If I wasn't so busy at the shop I'd probably be on the road right now.
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JaimeC

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2019, 02:42:06 AM »

As Nikola Tesla and George Westinghouse proved, it is far easier and safer (and therefore less expensive) to conduct high voltage current over AC than DC.  That being the case, it is less expensive and easier to provide high capacity L2 charging than L3 DC charging so most places are going L2.  Probably the reason there are so many more L2 stations out there. 

Around where I live, L2 stations seem to be popping up like mushrooms after a storm.
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Doug S

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2019, 03:16:03 AM »

As Nikola Tesla and George Westinghouse proved, it is far easier and safer (and therefore less expensive) to conduct high voltage current over AC than DC.  That being the case, it is less expensive and easier to provide high capacity L2 charging than L3 DC charging so most places are going L2.  Probably the reason there are so many more L2 stations out there. 

AC and DC "conduct" equally well, it's just that AC is extremely easy to bump up or down, by simply running it through a transformer. You can distribute AC over long distances at very high voltage (to minimize resistive losses in the wires), then bump it down easily at its destination. Multiple taps on the transformer allow easy tweaking to get the actual voltage close to the nominal 110, 208, 240, 480 or whatever is needed. DC is far harder and more expensive to level-shift.

L2 and L3 charging both require a "charger" to convert the AC line voltage to the proper DC voltage and current for the battery on the vehicle. The only difference is the location of the charger. L2 chargers simply bring the AC line voltage to the vehicle, which has its own charger, tailor made for the vehicle's battery. L3 puts the charger on the ground, so each vehicle doesn't have to carry its own charger, which is nice because chargers are bulky, heavy and can run hot. You can also make the charger monster-sized (since you only need one to service all vehicles), so it can charge vehicles with giant batteries fast. To service all the batteries that are out there, some sort of signaling protocol is necessary to tell the ground-based charger how much current to supply, at what voltage.
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MVetter

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2019, 03:27:33 AM »

Right, which also makes installing a CCS or CHAdeMO station a lot more expensive since you're buying all the chargers and cooling and big bulky things. Level 2 AC units can be as simple as little boxes attached near the breaker. Many can be had for under $400.
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alko

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2019, 04:54:27 AM »

I guess I'm kind of on the fence about whether there are "enough" of the DC charging stations yet to really make DC charging mandatory on Zero's bikes. OTOH, it is pretty clear that the number of them is growing fast, and if the lack of DC charging isn't a disadvantage yet, it will be before long.

On yet another hand, how hard will it be for Zero to add the capability later? A couple of high-current wires to the battery (or the BMS or wherever), some electronics in a module to interface with the charging station, mount it somewhere reasonably accessible, DC charging port.

Is there some reason it would be harder than that to add it on to a bike that doesn't ship with it? I'm not familiar with all the DC charging standards, is Zero's battery voltage too low for others the way it is for some or the CHAdeMo stations?

Im just saying DC should at least be an option, so Zero will have 3 ways to charge it depending on what's available to you at the time. I don't know how energica or Lightning does it, but I just heard that all 3 charging options will fit into a single port on the Harley which I didn't even know was possible. Sure beats having more than one port on the bike. Even though the Harley will accept a level 2 J1772 plug, it only charges at level 1 speed. NOT sure why they did that.
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MVetter

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2019, 06:35:00 AM »

The Energica has its own separate 3.3kW AC charger. The plug you are referring to is CCS or combo because it features the J1772 face with the addition of 2 large DC leads at the bottom.
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caza

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2019, 08:58:43 AM »

In the SF bay area, one of the most forward thinking places you'd think, level 3 chargers are extremely hard to find and when they are available there's only one per site while there are dozens of level 2 chargers available.

I really think prioritizing level 3 charging like Harley did would be a mistake.

The only reason to put level 3 on the bike is for the features/spec sheet, it doesn't really add up in terms of practicality or day to day living on the bike. In another 4 or 5 years it will probably make sense. Right now, not really.
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Crilly

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2019, 09:20:59 AM »

California is ahead on level 2 chargers because they were first.  Level 2 chargers are absolute. 

In Wisconsin we donot have a lot of level 2 chargers.

Chargers being built are level three.  Chevy dealers, Jaguar dealers, and Harley Dealers.

Zero propaganda on range is bull.  How slow do I have to ride my SR/Powertank to get over 200 mile range.

My guess if I were to get a SR/F I would get less than 80 miles to a charge taking it very easy this summer.
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alko

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2019, 10:03:12 AM »

California is ahead on level 2 chargers because they were first.  Level 2 chargers are absolute. 

In Wisconsin we donot have a lot of level 2 chargers.

Chargers being built are level three.  Chevy dealers, Jaguar dealers, and Harley Dealers.

Zero propaganda on range is bull.  How slow do I have to ride my SR/Powertank to get over 200 mile range.

My guess if I were to get a SR/F I would get less than 80 miles to a charge taking it very easy this summer.
Only 80 miles? Are you talking city or highways speeds?
I have a 2017 DSR without a charge tank and I consistantly get 110-115 miles around town with 15% left. Never drained it to 0%. Speed limit is 35mph and I'm not light on the throttle. Always in sport mode. Love to show off the acceleration. Cops never hear me so they never look up. Lol
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MVetter

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2019, 10:26:22 AM »

Zero propaganda on range is bull.  How slow do I have to ride my SR/Powertank to get over 200 mile range.

My guess if I were to get a SR/F I would get less than 80 miles to a charge taking it very easy this summer.

80 highway seems very reasonable. In my experience Zero's numbers are fairly accurate. Additionally, Zero has the most dense battery pack of any bike currently offered or even supposedly coming out this year. Charging seems to be a complicated subject, and the debate for liquid cooling on motors continues, but I don't think there's any debate that Zero offers potentially the most range per charge of any electric motorcycle by a long shot.

And yes, electric motorcycles are still very much in their infancy, but Zero is leading the pack on battery density.
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JaimeC

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #26 on: March 09, 2019, 07:21:14 PM »

My guess if I were to get a SR/F I would get less than 80 miles to a charge taking it very easy this summer.

I'm guessing your idea of "taking it very easy" means keeping your speed below 90mph, because I routinely get over 80 miles per charge on my "S" with the 13kWh battery and no power tank... most of my riding is highway with surface streets connecting them.  I'd say about 60% highway, 40% surface streets unless I'm just out for fun. 
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Jarrett

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2019, 07:28:26 PM »

My guess if I were to get a SR/F I would get less than 80 miles to a charge taking it very easy this summer.

Based on my limited experience with Zero, I was guessing the same thing.  That's not very far for $21,000.
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grmarks

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2019, 07:32:34 PM »

I think the reason is because Zero is still using the same battery architecture as in other models but in a new case which allows better heat dissipation. If that's true then they suffer from the same issue of the pack voltage being too low for all but a few DCFC that actually follow the full spec.

In addition 12kW onboard charging is cool but almost no public chargers support that.  And it's unlikely that many public 12kW stations will get built since the direction of infrastructure is DCFC over high power AC.... rightfully so.

Wrong decision in my book. Without DCFC it's hard to justify the SR/F premium over the SR unless you are going to a track.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

An article I saw said that the 12kw charging is done from 2 J1772 plugs, one for the 6 kw on board and one for the 6 kw charge tank.
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alko

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Re: Bad feeling Zero is going to fall behind with the SRF
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2019, 08:40:27 PM »


[/quote]

An article I saw said that the 12kw charging is done from 2 J1772 plugs, one for the 6 kw on board and one for the 6 kw charge tank.
[/quote]

This might seem like a dumb question, but how can you connect more than one j1722 plugs to the Zero? Does it have more than one port?
I've noticed zero advertising you can charge the bike in one hour using 3 chargers at once and always wondered how that works at a public charge station.
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