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[alko]

Harley Livewire, Energiva Evo and the $13,000 Lightning Strike all offer Fast DC charging, but Zero decided not to. Doesn't make sense as more and more DC charging stations are popping up. A brand new DC charge station just popped up at the Wal-Mart in my small town of Mesquite NV. I don't understand what Zero was thinking.

[David S]

Highly unlikely the 13k strike will have DC charging, or that version be anywhere near competitive with an SRF. Even if the specs are descent, I wouldn't feel comfortable buying from lightning yet until they actually start having dealers/distributers.

Also I still don't know what use cases people have in mind that want DC fast charging so much.

[DPsSRnSD]

Also I still don't know what use cases people have in mind that want DC fast charging so much.

Charity rides that are 100mi+

I'm hoping that Zero will take Tesla up on their offer to let other manufacturers use the Superchargers, because that will be the best nationwide DC charging network for a while.

[Jarrett]

It does seem like a bit of a miss on their part.   

Would have been nice to have more range OR much faster charging on the SR/F.  Something to make a $20k bike more viable to ICE riders, but it didn't seem to move the needle that much.

But maybe they did their research and know something we don't.

I keep wondering when Honda or another big player is going to just in the game.   I know HD is a big name, but it seems like they are just one miss away from being history compared to the other big players.

[mrwilsn]

I think the reason is because Zero is still using the same battery architecture as in other models but in a new case which allows better heat dissipation. If that's true then they suffer from the same issue of the pack voltage being too low for all but a few DCFC that actually follow the full spec.

In addition 12kW onboard charging is cool but almost no public chargers support that.  And it's unlikely that many public 12kW stations will get built since the direction of infrastructure is DCFC over high power AC.... rightfully so.

Wrong decision in my book. Without DCFC it's hard to justify the SR/F premium over the SR unless you are going to a track.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[ultrarnr]

DCFC allows you to take trips and greatly reduce your charging times. Instead of 1 1/2 to 2 hours you are charging for 20-30 minutes. When range and or charging times are not an issue I will ride my Eva. If they are then I take my KTM 1290 SA. CCS charging speed is a primary factor in making some trips practical for my Eva that I wouldn’t make on my Zero SR equipped with dual Elcons. Electric motorcycle can be a lot more than just commuting and local errand running motorcycles and faster charging plays a key role in that. On this forum there is a topic called the 300 Mile club for those Zero owners who have ridden 300 miles in one day. I have done that several times and yes it is a big deal because it makes for a very long day. The reason it takes so long is because of only being able to charge on L2. Last July I rode my Eva out to western NC. One day I rode about 358 miles on the Blue Ridge Parkway. All of my charging that day was CCS and riding that kind of mileage isn’t a big deal at all when each charging stop is only 20-30 minutes. Zero just doesn’t get this concept at all.

[Auriga]

I'm fairly certain that Zero will announce a DCFC charging module in the next couple years for the SR/F. But I suspect it'll be limited by the lack of battery cooling and system voltage, so perhaps at a rate not much faster than 12kW(1C for a monolith). I'm also not convinced some of the DCFC providers have considered battery longevity in the long term.

Personally, almost all the chargers around me are not DCFC and the ones that are are usually taken by car owners. So it has limited utility for me.

[MVetter]

Harley Livewire, Energiva Evo and the $13,000 Lightning Strike all offer Fast DC charging, but Zero decided not to. Doesn't make sense as more and more DC charging stations are popping up. A brand new DC charge station just popped up at the Wal-Mart in my small town of Mesquite NV. I don't understand what Zero was thinking.

First off, the LiveWire and the Strike offer nothing because they currently don't exist. Next, pop up PlugShare and have it display J1772 stations near you. How many are there. Now please let me know how many CCS stations there are by comparison.

[DPsSRnSD]

. . . pop up PlugShare and have it display J1772 stations near you. How many are there. Now please let me know how many CCS stations there are by comparison.

Next, see how many Superchargers are near you. Today, there are three within 50 miles of me.

[MostlyBonkers]

I'm impressed that Zero have managed to develop a new model, considering the market challenges.  I know they need to keep up, but it's a massive achievement nonetheless.

My take on it is that they've taken a cautious approach so they're not changing absolutely everything at once.  It may well be that going high voltage and implementing DC rapid charging is the next major development.  We might see it in a year or two.

The other big issue is thermal management.  Tesla has just introduced a system to heat cold batteries when planning a rapid charge.  To make rapid charging work efficiently, the cells have to be kept at the optimum temperature during charging and ensure they also don't overheat.  Zero also need to source cells that are ratified for 2C charging, or ideally 3 or 4C.  The current Farrasis cells are only allowed to go to 1C, even if they are probably capable of more.

So for rapid DC Zero would have to develop a whole new battery pack and electronics with active thermal management. Possibly a new motor too?  I'd like to see them do that with a new generation of cells and significantly higher capacity.  Something in the region of 20kWh nominal capacity that can charge at 50kW.  That would give us something like 150 mile range with the ability to add another 120 miles in 20 minutes.  That's getting close to what piston bikes can do.

The Energica can only charge at 20kW and has an effective range of about 50 miles at speed, from what I gather.  It needs to be at least twice that for all but the enthusiast to go for it.  Then there's the weight of the bike too.

I think Zero have done well, considering the constraints they have.  They've brought the SR/F to market at a similar price point to the SR. They get a round of applause from me.

[MVetter]

Next, see how many Superchargers are near you. Today, there are three within 50 miles of me.

Additionally note the quantity of outlets. There's a Lowe's near me that shows up a 1 blip of many on Plugshare but actually has over a dozen free J1772 outlets available. I'm guessing there's 1 total CCS plug at OP's Walmart. Maybe 2 if he's lucky.

And, MostlyBonkers, the Energicas charge at up to 23kW and can go ~70-80 mile range at highway speeds.

[flattetyre]

Not enough fast DC chargers exist or are going to exist while the SR/F is new and hot. Also, lots of smart people at Zero considered this very issue and didn't come to your conclusion, which makes your claim pretty extraordinary.

[DPsSRnSD]

Not enough fast DC chargers exist or are going to exist while the SR/F is new and hot. Also, lots of smart people at Zero considered this very issue and didn't come to your conclusion, which makes your claim pretty extraordinary.

The coverage map in the US is pretty good already, and getting better by the day: https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

[Doug S]

I guess I'm kind of on the fence about whether there are "enough" of the DC charging stations yet to really make DC charging mandatory on Zero's bikes. OTOH, it is pretty clear that the number of them is growing fast, and if the lack of DC charging isn't a disadvantage yet, it will be before long.

On yet another hand, how hard will it be for Zero to add the capability later? A couple of high-current wires to the battery (or the BMS or wherever), some electronics in a module to interface with the charging station, mount it somewhere reasonably accessible, DC charging port.

Is there some reason it would be harder than that to add it on to a bike that doesn't ship with it? I'm not familiar with all the DC charging standards, is Zero's battery voltage too low for others the way it is for some or the CHAdeMo stations?

[MostlyBonkers]

Next, see how many Superchargers are near you. Today, there are three within 50 miles of me.

Additionally note the quantity of outlets. There's a Lowe's near me that shows up a 1 blip of many on Plugshare but actually has over a dozen free J1772 outlets available. I'm guessing there's 1 total CCS plug at OP's Walmart. Maybe 2 if he's lucky.

And, MostlyBonkers, the Energicas charge at up to 23kW and can go ~70-80 mile range at highway speeds.

Thanks for the correction. After my experience of running a Kia Soul EV for 18 months, I tend to think in terms of effective range for longer trips. That's the actual range minus a contingency to allow for a failed or unavailable rapid charger. They're about 20 miles apart here in the UK on the motorway network.  I've rolled up to them before when they've been available on the app only to find they're covered up with 'Do Not Use' plastered over them.  Or somebody is charging and there's a 30 minute wait.  I'd take my chances and hope the next one is available when I get there.  I found I was comfortable with having at least ten miles of range left when I got to a charger.  That meant I had a good chance or reaching an L2 charger if my planned rapid was unavailable.  I couldn't count on more than 60 miles of highway range between rapid charges to 83% in the Kia Soul EV, especially in winter, so my effective range was around fifty miles.  I guess I'd revise it to around 60 miles effective range if I had an Energica, based on your info.  I think I settled on 50 from something I heard a while ago, but it could have been someone riding it like they stole it, rather than a constant highway speed.  Would you say it's 70-80 miles from full or from a rapid charge to approx. 80%?

Ultimately it depends on how you look at it, I suppose. Even on the highway, a 60 mile range should still be good for around an hour in the saddle; roadworks, traffic etc.  My bum starts getting sore after an hour so it isn't such a bad thing to stop for a break. Bike dependent, I guess. It's probably comfortable to go as far as your bladder will allow on a big tourer.

As soon as you get off the motorway network, rapid chargers get harder to find. That's why I still believe that it's important to have something like a 200 mile range in a car or at least 150 on a bike.  Charging anxiety was the biggest factor in my getting rid of my Kia Soul EV six months before the lease was up.  Long trips just weren't practical.