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[Moto7575]

I recently put my Zero on sale, and I really saw a change on the market:
   - couple of years ago nobody had heard about Zeros, and it was almost impossible to sell a used model. The "market" was mostly dealers selling 1-2 years demo bikes
   - this time i had 3 buyers ready to buy the bike. They all heard about Zeros, but could not pay the full price. All had alerts telling them when a new Zero appeared on the market. I sold it very quickly.
   - the biggest worry they had was on the possible cost in case of a battery problem.

This is a good sign because a strong used markets will make it possible for buyers who want to have a new model for a couple of years to sell it and buy a new one.

Recommandation to Zero:
   1 - Keep improving service and affordable solutions for out of warranty bikes.
   2 - AF1racing is your best friend because most parts (except the battery cost at max 1000$ - for the engine). Which tells out of warranty owners that if something bad happens, they can fix it at a cost making sense.
   3 - Find a solution for the battery of used models owners (ability to refurbish them / change some pockets) : even if it almost never happens, knowing that you can do it eliminates the risk of buying a 6000 $ used bike and having the pay 6000$ to change the battery
   4 - DO and COMMUNICATE on after warranty commitment to find solution at reasonable costs (which customer will of course have to pay) rather than the "not my problem buy a new one" value proposition dealers will push. Move from being a fun product company to a customer focused company. This is still a very weak point in Europe.

[Fran K]

I tried to figure out what bike you sold and wandering around in your posts found this one.
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8512.msg72114#msg72114  It seems you have had all sorts of problems and at this point needed change the motor.

Is this the bike you sold?  Have you purchased a new one or is the text in post 1 meant to mean that is your intention.

I do not recall if it was here or elsewhere but electric motorcycles seem to have no trade in value.  Is this why you chose to sell personally?

[NEW2elec]

I don't know if it's taking off, maybe in Europe, but buying used always makes the most $ sense.

The biggest problem I would say is banks don't have much data on sales and may not want to make loans for them.  That keeps dealers from risking finding a guy that wants to buy the bike bike but can't get a loan for it.  I've posted many time before they should offer an extended warranty on "certified" used bikes to ease fears on this newer tech.

But if you have saved your pennies and have king cash in your pocket the good opportunities open up.

In 2013 a Zero DS 11.4 went for about 16k without any tax credits if memory serves me right.  I bought my 13 DS for 8k with 7600 miles.
So half price while still having a few months of warranty left.  The man selling it was getting a new SR and wanted that one gone and lets just say he wasn't hurting for money. 
Since then I've put over 20k miles on it (28ish total) and it will never be worth $0.  The app says I've saved over $3000 on gas.  Zero did replace the battery free of charge and I paid about $600 for a DC-DC converter and fork leg.  I don't include tires and front brake pads as that goes for all motorcycles.

Even Moto7575's worst case of buying a $6000 bike and paying $6000 for a battery puts you at $12k which is still less than most new ones.

If someone wants a commuter to save money, and have fun doing it, you can't beat a used Zero.

[Moto7575]

Agree on the banks. But battery anxiety is a thing : 12 k for an old bike (let say 5-6 years) when new ones sell for 16k less 1k of green bonus is an awful deal. And this is what the average guy takes 6 months to bring home, so that might be pennies for you but not for a mass market.

I don't know if it's taking off, maybe in Europe, but buying used always makes the most $ sense.

The biggest problem I would say is banks don't have much data on sales and may not want to make loans for them.  That keeps dealers from risking finding a guy that wants to buy the bike bike but can't get a loan for it.  I've posted many time before they should offer an extended warranty on "certified" used bikes to ease fears on this newer tech.

But if you have saved your pennies and have king cash in your pocket the good opportunities open up.

In 2013 a Zero DS 11.4 went for about 16k without any tax credits if memory serves me right.  I bought my 13 DS for 8k with 7600 miles.
So half price while still having a few months of warranty left.  The man selling it was getting a new SR and wanted that one gone and lets just say he wasn't hurting for money. 
Since then I've put over 20k miles on it (28ish total) and it will never be worth $0.  The app says I've saved over $3000 on gas.  Zero did replace the battery free of charge and I paid about $600 for a DC-DC converter and fork leg.  I don't include tires and front brake pads as that goes for all motorcycles.

Even Moto7575's worst case of buying a $6000 bike and paying $6000 for a battery puts you at $12k which is still less than most new ones.

If someone wants a commuter to save money, and have fun doing it, you can't beat a used Zero.

[NEW2elec]

Saving your pennies (pinching pennies) is an old term for being cheap.  That's me.  I don't make a lot of money but I don't waste it on a lot of things others do.  I eat peanut butter sandwiches everyday for lunch at work while people spend $20 on "in style" food and drinks.   Most people don't like to talk about money.  Of course most people are in debt. 

The $12k example is of course "worst case" and so far Zero has been very good at correcting any big battery issues.

But as for the bikes I think the cost of batteries will continue to go down and replacing them will be cheaper in the next 5 years.  As bigger companies get into electrics and can spend hundreds of millions on scale it will drop even more.
 Also mileage doesn't make as big a difference in electric as gas bikes in my opinion.  There is no metal to metal friction and wear.  No over heated cracked heads or leaking old seals.  You might lose a bit of range over time and bearings wear out in everything but not much else that mileage hurts on electrics.

[Moto7575]

Also:
   - plastics get older
   - steel rust
   - technology improves (making older models less attractive)
   - wheel bearings need to be changed
   

[NEW2elec]

I'm not trying to just disagree to disagree but from my point of view those aren't valid.

Plastics and paint both fade if they are out in the sun.
Steel rusts: on what, some screws and brake spring?  Not hardly any steel there and if you stay off salted roads your fine anyway.

Technology improves:  They went from the four Meanwell charging units on my 13DS that are still going strong to 1 Greenwatt unit that breaks often.  My old dash is fine while the light and clock goes out on the newer ones.   The do your own updates off the app doesn't work for a lot of guys on here.

I said bearings go out on everything as in all well used situations and yes the older wheels weren't as good but I swapped them out for about $50 with All Balls and haven't had any more problems.

I stand by the fact that the best option for cost savings is to buy used and put the money you saved away for repairs if needed.

[flattetyre]

The bikes are improving too fast for old models to be worthwhile especially at the ridiculous used prices. If you're on a budget and want a motorcycle, let's get real, any Zero is ridiculously expensive and probably not a smart choice. If you're poor but resourceful and must have electric, you could build or modify a electric scooter / bike / bicycle with salvage batteries for the fraction of a cost of a Zero.

These bikes are best owned by people with money to spare who just want to ride. Money to spare means you could afford things like a new battery without being too bothered. Now the reality is people will always go to their financial limits and beyond to get cool stuff, but whose fault is that?

[ultratoad]

Saving your pennies (pinching pennies) is an old term for being cheap.  That's me.  I don't make a lot of money but I don't waste it on a lot of things others do.  I eat peanut butter sandwiches everyday for lunch at work while people spend $20 on "in style" food and drinks.   Most people don't like to talk about money.  Of course most people are in debt. 

The $12k example is of course "worst case" and so far Zero has been very good at correcting any big battery issues.

But as for the bikes I think the cost of batteries will continue to go down and replacing them will be cheaper in the next 5 years.  As bigger companies get into electrics and can spend hundreds of millions on scale it will drop even more.
 Also mileage doesn't make as big a difference in electric as gas bikes in my opinion.  There is no metal to metal friction and wear.  No over heated cracked heads or leaking old seals.  You might lose a bit of range over time and bearings wear out in everything but not much else that mileage hurts on electrics.

I love peanut butter sandwiches !!!!

[Richard230]

[/quote]

I love peanut butter sandwiches !!!!
[/quote]

Me too. And adding a little jam to the peanut butter makes it go down easier.  I spend all of my money buying motorcycles - and not much else. 

[DonTom]

Saving your pennies (pinching pennies) is an old term for being cheap.  That's me.

I would rather have motorcycles in the garage than cash in the bank. Cash has no value until it is spent!

Besides, :

“Any man who dies with more than $10000 to his name is a failure.”
― Errol Flynn

But there is no limit on motorcycles!

-Don-  Reno, NV

[NEW2elec]

Yes I have eaten peanut butter almost daily for over 40 years.  It's awesome.

Guys everyone should do whatever they want with their money and you two clearly love motorcycles so more power to ya.
I try to live poor so I never am.
By the way $10,000 was a lot of money in Flynn's day.

I just want to make sure people who want an electric motorcycle and are stopped at the price of a new one know that a used one isn't a bad choice and a lower starting price just make total cost of ownership that much better in the long run.

[Moto7575]

Not really - you're saving 2000 $ of gas per year, paying 6000$ for a bike if it laste 5-6 more years makes sense. If Zero doesnt ensure this market exists (which means making sure cost conscious customers can avoid a big issue), the rich people willing to buy a new model will have to pay twice (instead of 16000 - 7000 to sell the old model - 1000 eco bonus, you scrap the old one or give it to someone)... This is how markets for vehicles work, especially in the categoris where old products dont become collection items (like Ferraris).

The bikes are improving too fast for old models to be worthwhile especially at the ridiculous used prices. If you're on a budget and want a motorcycle, let's get real, any Zero is ridiculously expensive and probably not a smart choice. If you're poor but resourceful and must have electric, you could build or modify a electric scooter / bike / bicycle with salvage batteries for the fraction of a cost of a Zero.

These bikes are best owned by people with money to spare who just want to ride. Money to spare means you could afford things like a new battery without being too bothered. Now the reality is people will always go to their financial limits and beyond to get cool stuff, but whose fault is that?

[PittCaleb]

Not really - you're saving 2000 $ of gas per year, paying 6000$ for a bike if it laste 5-6 more years makes sense.

I watched used Zero prices for almost 18 months before finally finding an economical deal.  $7k for a 15 SR with 3k miles.

I'm hoping it will "pay off" in 2-3 years of riding - I lease my 4-wheeler and reducing miles has direct impact to my bottom line.

I never knew of all these problems reported on this board.  Hoping I experience none of them and have a wonderful summer of riding.  Only have 400 miles, having bought it in October right before the temps dipped in the NE.  But 350 of those were "replacement" miles for my car.

I want the additional tank batter, I want fast charging, but adding those costs greatly extends the pay-off period.  As I ride this summer, I'll learn if greater range or faster charging will give me more utility for the bike.  Or do I enjoy this for a couple years, then buy a new/er one with those features?

[Moto7575]

Yes - my advice would be to minimize your investment: at today's level of Zero customer service,  if you have any significant problem you'll be alone.