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[Brammofan]

I had a near death experience with my key switch failing.  Now I'm hearing this has happened to dozens of others and is one of several defects that the office here has raised with HQ.  Basically the key switches are falling apart.  When this happens the bike turns off, no throttle, no lights, no horn, no ABS, no nothing. It happened to me Wednesday evening just as it had gotten dark.  Had there been any snow or ice on the road, I'd be dead.

As a new forum member, you're going to have to provide a lot more information than this about a "key switch" failure or I will lock this thread. I've been aware of a few problems with Zeros over the years but never anything with a key switch. I'm going to need a year and model of YOUR Zero and a link or two (or a dozen) to other key switch failures as you have alleged. "Dozens"? Really?

[JaimeC]

I don't consider "lack of traction control" to be an issue with the bike.  I've been riding since 1982 and have almost a million miles under my butt including multiple track days and some (unplanned) off road excursions and only ONCE did I ever say to myself:  "Gee, I wish I had traction control."  That was when it rained overnight and I was having difficulty getting my Yamaha TMAX out from the mud puddle that developed around it and on to the road.  The CVT made it impossible to feed in just the right amount of throttle to move the bike under its own power; every attempt resulted in the wheel just spinning up and flinging mud everywhere.  It took a couple of us slipping and sliding to push it onto dry ground.  A traditional clutch would've allowed me to feather in just the right amount of throttle to avoid wheel spin and that's the ticket to real-world "Traction control:"  Understanding there is an INFINITE number of throttle positions between fully closed and WFO.

Between my 2016 and 2018 Zero Ses, I have a little over 19,000 miles on Zeros and never once felt I needed traction control.  Learning how to properly modulate the "throttle" is the way to go unless you're a road racer looking to shave another tenth off of your lap time.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

I don't consider "lack of traction control" to be an issue with the bike.  I've been riding since 1982 and have almost a million miles under my butt including multiple track days and some (unplanned) off road excursions and only ONCE did I ever say to myself:  "Gee, I wish I had traction control."  That was when it rained overnight and I was having difficulty getting my Yamaha TMAX out from the mud puddle that developed around it and on to the road.  The CVT made it impossible to feed in just the right amount of throttle to move the bike under its own power; every attempt resulted in the wheel just spinning up and flinging mud everywhere.  It took a couple of us slipping and sliding to push it onto dry ground.  A traditional clutch would've allowed me to feather in just the right amount of throttle to avoid wheel spin and that's the ticket to real-world "Traction control:"  Understanding there is an INFINITE number of throttle positions between fully closed and WFO.

Between my 2016 and 2018 Zero Ses, I have a little over 19,000 miles on Zeros and never once felt I needed traction control.  Learning how to properly modulate the "throttle" is the way to go unless you're a road racer looking to shave another tenth off of your lap time.

Please, posturing is not helpful. The fact is, the wheel can break loose and spin up rapidly, and it has demonstrably caused some riders some problems.

I have personally experienced a loss of traction that induced a fishtail at speed several times while I lived in Seattle, on a 2013 DS. It's a risk factor that is worth mitigating.

Even with my now-honed skills and throttle sensitivity assists on my 2016 DSR, the wheel still can break traction and spin up when I don't want it to, and it absolutely is a risk factor that might contribute to an accident if I'm unable to keep it under control due to other factors.

Risk is complicated, and I'm pointing out a factor in the bike's systems design and setup that contributes to it.

EDIT: I have 26000 miles logged on the 2013 DS and 38000 miles logged on the 2016 DSR, and have logged travel in all kinds of weather, including snow.

[flattetyre]

Lack of traction control is only a problem for people who don't have any business riding a moto in anything other than training circumstances. Obviously this includes a whole lot of people who consider themselves "experienced". Sitting on a bike riding it at 10% of its limit for hundreds of hours can give you lots of experience, but not in bike handling.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

This, again, is posturing.

I, for one, recognize that my training keeps me as safe as I can manage, and that it helps me identify when traction loss is a risk so I can plan around it.

But I can also respectfully recognize that those with incomplete training, OR those who have been distracted momentarily and are not sufficiently in control of a situation, might wind up with an accident because the bike's traction loss characteristics (high wheel spin-up faster than an ICE motorcycle).

I'm not saying the lack of traction control is "a problem". I'm saying it tips the scale in favor of an accident.

EXAMPLE: Let's say you're riding at night in the rain, and enter a curve at a reasonable speed with a steady throttle hand. You might lose traction because of a surprise oil patch, and the wheel might spin up faster than on an ICE bike, and you haven't encountered that fast spin-up before. If you're alert and trained, you can take care of it. But you might be distracted by oncoming traffic or pressured by other emergent circumstances (gravel! bad pavement!) in a way that contributes to a low-side. In this case, the traction loss characteristics of the bike were a contributing factor.

NB: I must point out that we're disputing exactly one in my list of 17 items as though we must defend our personal skill levels in order to be taken seriously.

[flattetyre]

If you don't have basic competency at handling the vehicle you shouldn't be using it in situations where losing control is a concern, like on a roadway.

[Crilly]

If you fish tail when you spin up a rear wheel, you are over controlling the bike. Period

[Jarrett]

How many guys here have as much time on a Zero as BrianTRice?

If you follow the ZMOG FB group, you'll see racers and professional motorcycle riders echoing what he is saying.  There is a unique torque situation that exists on the Zero bikes that doesn't have an equal on ICE bikes.  And it has bitten some riders, good riders.  Who are now leery of the Zero bikes as a result. It's worth considering they may be right on this. 

I suspect it will be a moot point in the future as I bet traction control is coming soon to a Zero near you.

[caza]

I think this is an important discussion but too often it boils down to being "against" or "for" zero instead of an honest discussion of the qualities of the bike.

The framing is often at the extreme ends, either "Traction control is in your wrist" dismissing the realities of the electic drivetrain, or "Without traction control you're GOING DOWN" alarmist over-reacting.

To me the obvious truth is somewhat in the middle. The torque of the electric motor means that wheelspin is easier to achieve on the Zero than most ICE bikes, so riders should understand and be aware/wary of it when riding. This doesn't make a Zero automatically more dangerous than any other bike, but an unaware uncareful rider is more dangerous. A lot of riders approach electric bikes with a dismissive attitude and don't respect or understand the differences between electric and ICE.

So an informed, trained rider who understands and respects the Zero's qualities isn't in significant danger because of no traction control.

But whether it's necessary to a skilled rider or not, it would be a very welcomed feature that could potentially save lives, so there's no point in being vocal and proud of "not needing it". The addition of traction control could save lives, but also it would make the bike more approachable and comfortable for those riders that are currently scared off by the situation.

[dennis-NL]

For me, I respect the torque it has like I did riding the Honda Magna.
It can be a problem if you don't adjust your driving style.
So traction control is not needed but very helpfull to have it on an EV.
Personaly I hate ABS, TC and all other.
But that's just me.
I still buy the EV with those.

[NoMoreIdeas]

During my second test ride, I was on a 2017 DSR and was making a right turn in front of a bunch of Harley riders. I thought 'i'll get on it through the turn and coming out and have these guys thinking what did I just see??'. I rolled on the throttle as I would on my Street triple and all of a sudden, the rear end was going sideways.. and fast. In tune with what I was doing, I chopped the throttle, quickly recovered, checked my pants and kept on riding. I almost low sided it, but it didn't stop me or worry me about riding these things, I quickly realized electric motors needed to be handled a little differently than ICE bikes and I kinda wanted to get one more (I mean.. that torque!!). Shenanigans made easy .  I have also been sideways on my old GSXR 750 accidentally in rain (again, cut throttle quickly and recovered just fine), and sideways intentionally on my Yamaha warrior a few times, so while breaking traction was a surprise, it kinda wasn't and I was still able to react prevent an accident. I think there are alot of riders out there like me who don't see a lack of TC as an issue, and there are plenty who would love the peace of mind that they never have to worry about it. This has been quite the debate on here over time, and I think for Zeros target audience it would be a good idea for them to have it, but my personal feeling is it doesn't bother me at all. I dont think its a 'defect' but its a wish-list item and for the mean time something to be mindful of.

[NEW2elec]

The only draw back for me with TC is the up front cost and repair cost if or when it goes out.
I really learned to ride on a Zero so it's what I'm used to.  But I can see some people wanting it and I don't mind if they do, in this market whatever gets butts on bikes is fine with me.
I've never had a problem even with my DSR I just wait till I'm fairly upright again to punch it.

I do think they will include it in the near future regardless just to CYA so to speak.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

I'd rather discuss how Zero motorcycles can go dark. This relates to the "ignition" lock problem.

The core problem is that the system is designed with the battery, then the DC-DC converter and MBB powered off of that (but upstream of the contactor, since the contactor really mainly isolates the motor controller and charging circuits).

There are interlocks and safety cutouts that have the MBB signal the DC-DC converter to turn off, disabling the entire 12V system including the signal lights, etc., when the core goal is to stop the powertrain.

I think this is a design flaw that exacerbates riders' frustrations when things go wrong.

[quixotic]

The spade connector at the Zero's female plug (just behind the frame member) is prone to causing overheating problems in the plug area (ie, lots of melting and a bad stench) because the contact area for the current is minimal.  I've since replaced mine (with another spade and receptacle), and so far, so good.  Always check for warmth behind the frame member when charging.

[caza]

The going dark issue is definately the biggest flaw/safety issue of the Zero in my eyes.

It would be nice to have even a very small 12v battery backup to alleviate this problem.