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[Emtkopan]

My 2016SR had the charger die at 7000 miles. It was replaced under dealer warranty. Contactor won't always release after charging but a few key switches gets it to drop. Only get about 70 miles of range on my my battery (don't know what it's supposed to get, but that seems bad). I love it anyway.

Mine did too. Twice. I now am dealing with the third time it quit charging but they are saying it was a software issue that was fixed with a firmware update.


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[kcfoxie]

However it was reliable enough for me to find the inherent flaw in the Zero design: lack of battery cooling of any sort. I couldn't go more than 120-150 miles in a given day before it would stop recharging (I live in the southern US, 108F days are not unheard of, hell it's 65F right now and we aren't even out of January) once we got past spring. The final straw was when it overheated while charging after a total of 90-miles ridden on an 80F overcast day.

I live in San Diego east county, and it's 73 here today. We often see 100+ during the summer, and I ride nearly every day, including several trips where I've fast-charged with my DigiNow several times in a day. The only overheating problem I've seen is due to my non-IPM motor (I have a 2014 SR with 45,000 miles on it), which can't take more than a couple of full-throttle stop-light races in hot weather.

Look, clearly you've had problems with your bikes, and of course that's going to leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth. But come on....overheating under normal circumstances on an 80F day? I'm skeptical at best. Again, I respect that you've had problems with your bikes, and it's more than fair to report those. But I think your'e dumping more on them than they deserve. Their heat-management problems aren't THAT severe.

Spend some time on the FB group and you'd be surprised how often this IS a problem that the battery stops charging due to reaching 122F. Moshe K Levy got a 2018 for a review with Motorcycle Consumer News, lives in PA, and he couldn't commute with it (45mi all highway one way). He posted for weeks about it and asking for ways to prevent it from getting so hot on the ride in that it would charge on Level 1. I told him he'd probably be best to use his Volt's Level 1 into the ChargeTank as that at least activates the ChargeTank fan and that's better than nothing. The Level 1 being below the battery is simply a bad design decision, there really isn't room for discussion about it IMO.

[JaimeC]

New York's climate isn't really any different than Pennsylvania's so I'm wonder just how FAST these guys are going on the highway.  In the 19,000 (combined) miles I've put on my two Zeros I have never ONCE had an overheating problem.  As I stated earlier, my commute is 34 miles round trip, and it is nearly all highway.  However, when I'm on the highway, I am in "ECO" mode and just hold the throttle wide open.  That's like a poor man's "cruise control" in that it holds me at a steady 70 mph.  I've ridden in the hottest days of summer (high nineties with a digustingly high humidity since I live on an island) and never noticed any power reduction due to heat.  I wonder if that's the trick?  I know almost everyone here seems to avoid "ECO" mode.  Once I'm off the highway I switch back to "Custom."  My settings are full power/full regen and that seems to work best in our local traffic.  I find "Sport" pretty useless.

[kcfoxie]

However it was reliable enough for me to find the inherent flaw in the Zero design: lack of battery cooling of any sort. I couldn't go more than 120-150 miles in a given day before it would stop recharging (I live in the southern US, 108F days are not unheard of, hell it's 65F right now and we aren't even out of January) once we got past spring. The final straw was when it overheated while charging after a total of 90-miles ridden on an 80F overcast day.

Would you mind elaborating on this?  I don't fully understand the issue here.

With a 90% payload on a 80F+ day, the most I could travel on the bike was roughly 150mi before it would overheat and refuse to charge. A normal weekend is between 300-500 miles for me during riding season (March-October), on top of any commuting needs. I put 6500 miles on this bike in about 5 months, to give you an idea for my use case (and expectations). There are a few memorable times where it failed to charge: the first one was when I wanted to go check out new ChargePoint stations (installed under the Duke Energy Coal Ashe Remediation Fund) in I think it was Hamlet, NC (I'd need to check the map). I made it to Sanford on a single charge (was very low - 10% or so), and the battery was already at 113F when I parked and plugged in. Nearly all charging infrastructure, especially in small towns, is outside in direct sunlight. Black battery, lucite-encased primatic pouches, no heat fins, and a bottom-mounted EVSE that's used even when the Level 2 (which does have a fan) is active = reached 118F around 90%.  I had to make the call, do I make the next leg and possibly get stuck in this place for 8+ hours (cool down and recharge time), or do I call off this trip and head to Durham to charge at my friends house and go for a swim. Opted for Durham, and it stopped charging within 4 hours of being plugged in. I had enough juice to get it home via backroads. It was well over 100F on this trip, the whole day.

The final straw was an overcast Sunday where the high was 81F. The bike had ~88% SOC when I headed out at 8am for a 30-mile joyride. I never exceeded 55mph. I rode to the brunch spot and plugged it into a 120v outlet and it charged for ~1.5 hour. Ride it another 40-ish miles, all but 7 are highway 70+, and plugged it in at my friends house. It stopped charging due to battery reaching 122F within a few hours (but I was above 50% so I could take the highway home). I traded it the following Wednesday, and didn't look back.

Let's contrast to the Energica. I rode it over 250 miles the Saturday morning after I got it (nearly a week to the day I said I'm done with Zero), 50-60 miles between DC Charges with a total of 4 back to back charges (the longest lasting 32min). Battery temp would go yellow (warm) after the charge and returned to green (normal/cool) within the 45min-1hr ride between stations. I did this in a little under 6 hours with charging. The longest trip I took on the Zero was 213 miles (one-way) to Myrtle Beach and it took me about 13 hours to get there on the 2017 SR.

I bought the bike with 150mi, it had 300mi on it less than 48 hours later, and crossed 1000 miles before I'd had it a week. I have plans to put ~7000 miles on the energica this summer just in trips to visit Electrify America stations around the southern US (VA, NC, TN, SC, GA, AL).

[kcfoxie]

New York's climate isn't really any different than Pennsylvania's so I'm wonder just how FAST these guys are going on the highway.  In the 19,000 (combined) miles I've put on my two Zeros I have never ONCE had an overheating problem.  As I stated earlier, my commute is 34 miles round trip, and it is nearly all highway.  However, when I'm on the highway, I am in "ECO" mode and just hold the throttle wide open.  That's like a poor man's "cruise control" in that it holds me at a steady 70 mph.  I've ridden in the hottest days of summer (high nineties with a digustingly high humidity since I live on an island) and never noticed any power reduction due to heat.  I wonder if that's the trick?  I know almost everyone here seems to avoid "ECO" mode.  Once I'm off the highway I switch back to "Custom."  My settings are full power/full regen and that seems to work best in our local traffic.  I find "Sport" pretty useless.

I used that eco mode trick a few times when I get low on power (under 25%). But I don't think hypermiling is a reasonable solution, especially when some road I have to take are 70mph and people run 85+ on them. Speaking of cruise, allegedly a spring firmware update will give my Eva cruise control. That'll come in handy this summer.

[dennis-NL]

Overheating is not a reliability issue.
It's a built in safety feature to not harm your bike.
Adjust your driving when it happens too let it cool.
For me only overheats at 128+ km/h at highway communting.
The Zero is a basic EV compared to an Energica.
But I like it for that, for 90% of users it will be good enough.
Want more, pay more.
Back on topic:
yes, I find my 2013DS very reliable.
No problems yet,  no extra maintenance yet.

[Doug S]

The final straw was an overcast Sunday where the high was 81F. The bike had ~88% SOC when I headed out at 8am for a 30-mile joyride. I never exceeded 55mph. I rode to the brunch spot and plugged it into a 120v outlet and it charged for ~1.5 hour. Ride it another 40-ish miles, all but 7 are highway 70+, and plugged it in at my friends house. It stopped charging due to battery reaching 122F within a few hours (but I was above 50% so I could take the highway home). I traded it the following Wednesday, and didn't look back.

I can't speak to anybody else's experience, but that is NOT how my bike behaves. I can ride (and have ridden) all day, ~70 mph on the freeway, charging at ~6kW with my DigiNow, with no signs of overheating. If I try to bump my cruising speed into the 75-80 mph range, overheating becomes a possibility, but the range reduction isn't worth the higher cruising speed anyhow. When charging with the on-board (~.2kW) charger, a Zero should be cooling down pretty fast. That's just not enough charging current to cause a battery to heat up.

As I've said, the overheating issues i have had are with my non-IPM motor, which can't take much hard riding on a hot day. The battery is fine with light touring duty, which is all you can achieve with an electric motorcycle these days.

From what I've read here, my experience is far more typical for us Zero owners than yours has been. Several of us DO light touring with our Zeros, and the overheating issues are very manageable. Perhaps there was something wrong with your bike, or perhaps you're exaggerating your experience, but I think very few Zero owners are going to experience what you've described.

[nevetsyad]

The ambient temps really are the make or break. I can ride at whatever speed I want and never overheat, unless it's warm out. Charging after a high speed run, I can always charge at level 1. Level 2, depends on ambient temps greatly. Level 2 with level 1 charger engaged at the same time, seems to heat the battery quickly and unless it's cold out, doesn't go well.

[kcfoxie]

I can't speak to anybody else's experience, but that is NOT how my bike behaves. I can ride (and have ridden) all day, ~70 mph on the freeway, charging at ~6kW with my DigiNow, with no signs of overheating. If I try to bump my cruising speed into the 75-80 mph range, overheating becomes a possibility, but the range reduction isn't worth the higher cruising speed anyhow. When charging with the on-board (~.2kW) charger, a Zero should be cooling down pretty fast. That's just not enough charging current to cause a battery to heat up.

Where is your Diginow mounted? All my problems were on *stock* hardware. Modifications shouldn't be necessary, IMO.

From what I've read here, my experience is far more typical for us Zero owners than yours has been. Several of us DO light touring with our Zeros, and the overheating issues are very manageable. Perhaps there was something wrong with your bike, or perhaps you're exaggerating your experience, but I think very few Zero owners are going to experience what you've described.

Except that there's evidence -- on the ZMOG group -- of people who have. I'm not alone, and I do not appreciate your insinuation that I'd exaggerate.

Glad it works for you. It didn't for me (and I tried twice). I am also 100% confident I can replicate the problem on your bike.

[JaimeC]

Glad it works for you. It didn't for me (and I tried twice). I am also 100% confident I can replicate the problem on your bike.

Okay, this reminds me of that classic old joke where the patient tells the doctor:  "Doc, it hurts when I do this."  The doctor responds:  "Well then, don't DO that!"

[Doug S]

Where is your Diginow mounted? All my problems were on *stock* hardware. Modifications shouldn't be necessary, IMO.

My Diginow is mounted in the "tank", but I kept the stock charger in the stock location. I can charge with either one all day long and not overheat the battery, unless (as I said) I'm riding >75mph and fast-charging with the Diginow, in which case it becomes possible to overheat on a hot day.

Except that there's evidence -- on the ZMOG group -- of people who have. I'm not alone, and I do not appreciate your insinuation that I'd exaggerate.

Glad it works for you. It didn't for me (and I tried twice). I am also 100% confident I can replicate the problem on your bike.

You're free to not appreciate whatever you'd like, but I'll further state that anecdotal evidence is not convincing evidence of a design problem.

I'm 100% confident you CAN'T replicate the problem on my bike with the stock charger. I have 45,000 miles of anecdotal evidence that you can't.

[kcfoxie]

Where is your Diginow mounted? All my problems were on *stock* hardware. Modifications shouldn't be necessary, IMO.

My Diginow is mounted in the "tank", but I kept the stock charger in the stock location. I can charge with either one all day long and not overheat the battery, unless (as I said) I'm riding >75mph and fast-charging with the Diginow, in which case it becomes possible to overheat on a hot day.

Except that there's evidence -- on the ZMOG group -- of people who have. I'm not alone, and I do not appreciate your insinuation that I'd exaggerate.

Glad it works for you. It didn't for me (and I tried twice). I am also 100% confident I can replicate the problem on your bike.

You're free to not appreciate whatever you'd like, but I'll further state that anecdotal evidence is not convincing evidence of a design problem.

I'm 100% confident you CAN'T replicate the problem on my bike with the stock charger. I have 45,000 miles of anecdotal evidence that you can't.

Bring it to NC and leave it with me for a weekend. I promise you I can cause it to refuse to charge after a single 90 mile ride. Did it on a demo, and ours. Great you haven't hit the problem, but it's a problem nonetheless.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[NEW2elec]

kcfoxie, Atlanta here, I'm not saying your wrong with this but I'm wondering have you ever got a temperature reading off the battery aka regular thermometer?  I remember old posts saying the thermistors weren't correct sometimes.  Some guys had them changed out and fixed their overheating.  There is a video of a homemade electric racing bike and the guy had those old liquid crystal aquarium thermometers for his battery.  That won't help override the Zero's MBB heat safety lock out but may give you an idea of the surface temp.

I've never had my old DS overheat or refuse to charge (from heat, I have had it not charge from cold) but I've never rode like you either.

Also for what it's worth, I bought a very cheap, but it works, cover off ebay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/All-Weather-Motorcycle-Cover-Motor-Bike-Outdoor-Indoor-Waterproof-M-Snug-Fit/141965828657?fits=Make%3AZero&hash=item210dd2a231:g:YjsAAOSwlfxXF6fJ:rk:1:pf:1&frcectupt=true

It has held up better then I thought it would.  It has a silvery reflective bottom end that should work as a good sun block for the battery and like a water resistant (not proof) nylon on the top that lets heat vent out and keeps the dew off when I go to get on it at night.
I lock my jacket up with a bike cable lock that I run through a sleeve and the rear wheel so no one can roll it away too easy.  The jacket has never been damp from dew or sprinkle rain.

[Moto7575]

For 10$ you can buy a cheap IR thermometer...

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

A cheap IR thermometer won't read through the battery case at all. It's basically reflective in the IR band that one would care about for measuring battery temperatures.

The monolith temperature readings in the logs list 7 sensors and an ambient sensor. It would be helpful to know the locations of these sensors (even if they vary by pack design per year).