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[centra12]

Welcome to at least six years of Stone Age. The Flintstones send their greetings.

For the USA the motorcycle might be suitable, however, for
the EU market there will be a tube collapse 

[pacificcricket]

Perhaps this bike will be attractive to some buyers, but as a long time Zero DS owner I wouldn't buy one. Wake me up when the battery pack voltage is upped so the bike can do ChaDeMo / CCS without issues.

[protomech]

What I suspect is that Zero would support 200V DC charging by reconfiguring the pack dynamically, with each long brick in series. Having a separate 12V battery supports powering the onboard computer systems while performing a relay toggle to safely disconnect and reconnect packs.

Or they may just have the wiggle room in the new platform design to switch to 200V on a future model, without the dynamic switching, but that would require a motor controller change, potentially.

Dynamic pack reconfiguration is going to be a little tricky if they continue to use Power Tanks as a separate parallel battery.

At very low SOC (10%) the pack voltage is < 100V. Doubled, that might be an issue for stations that can go down to only 200 volts. Perhaps they would grow the packs to 30 series cells or similar.

I hope Zero has built this frame with an eye towards accommodating larger batteries in the future. It's possible that they judge - reasonably so - that CCS doesn't have enough deployment in enough places and that the current pack is large enough for daily riding.

[Doug S]

It would be unwise to underestimate the appeal of the "commuter-only" machine, even if commuting is truly the only purpose for the vehicle. For most drivers, commuting is far and away how they spend the majority of their miles.

But these bikes are far more versatile than that, anyhow. I've done club rides from where I live in El Cajon to Borrego Springs, about 150 miles round trip. Granted, I generally meet my club partway up the ride after a fresh recharge, and convince them to stop in Borrego for another recharge, then break off early for a final recharge, but so what? I still get to do >50% of the ride with them, and the rest by myself, and it's a great day of riding.

I've also ridden up to visit my family in Orange County, 180 miles or so round trip, which also works out great. I also did a one-day 263-mile trip, just so I could join the "250 miles in one day" club. It was a long day but a good day.

For me, I don't WANT longer trips very often, if ever. It just means more time spent in the saddle with a sore butt and stiff legs. They're supposed to be pleasure rides, not bummer rides.

[GaryArt1]

It would be unwise to underestimate the appeal of the "commuter-only" machine, even if commuting is truly the only purpose for the vehicle. For most drivers, commuting is far and away how they spend the majority of their miles.

But these bikes are far more versatile than that, anyhow. I've done club rides from where I live in El Cajon to Borrego Springs, about 150 miles round trip. Granted, I generally meet my club partway up the ride after a fresh recharge, and convince them to stop in Borrego for another recharge, then break off early for a final recharge, but so what? I still get to do >50% of the ride with them, and the rest by myself, and it's a great day of riding.

I've also ridden up to visit my family in Orange County, 180 miles or so round trip, which also works out great. I also did a one-day 263-mile trip, just so I could join the "250 miles in one day" club. It was a long day but a good day.

For me, I don't WANT longer trips very often, if ever. It just means more time spent in the saddle with a sore butt and stiff legs. They're supposed to be pleasure rides, not bummer rides.

I couldn’t agree with this more.  I am looking for a e-motorcycle for the everyday short trips and short pleasurable rides.  I still have my ICE tourer  with big comforatable seat and forward foot boards for the long trips.  The SR/F fits perfectly in this plan.  But that is just me,  I know everyone’s needs are different.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

What I suspect is that Zero would support 200V DC charging by reconfiguring the pack dynamically, with each long brick in series. Having a separate 12V battery supports powering the onboard computer systems while performing a relay toggle to safely disconnect and reconnect packs.

Or they may just have the wiggle room in the new platform design to switch to 200V on a future model, without the dynamic switching, but that would require a motor controller change, potentially.

Dynamic pack reconfiguration is going to be a little tricky if they continue to use Power Tanks as a separate parallel battery.

At very low SOC (10%) the pack voltage is < 100V. Doubled, that might be an issue for stations that can go down to only 200 volts. Perhaps they would grow the packs to 30 series cells or similar.

I hope Zero has built this frame with an eye towards accommodating larger batteries in the future. It's possible that they judge - reasonably so - that CCS doesn't have enough deployment in enough places and that the current pack is large enough for daily riding.

Great points. The 200V threshold was in mind when I wrote this but I'm only trying to work out a hypothesis. I think I've had some wish that the Power Tank would turn into a long brick, but that's not going to happen.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

I should say that my 2016 DSR with Power Tank accomplished 600 miles in a 20 hour day recently and that was using 6.6 or 9kW most of the way because of configuration issues (R&D clutter that takes up way too much of my trip attempts).

Right now I have 16.5kW of DigiNow charging units (3 in the pan and 2 on the chin) and almost 15kW nominal capacity so it's nearly at the sweet spot, theoretically 500 miles in a 12 hour day.  As soon as my chargers are instantly usable via patching/re-plugging, that should hit 45mph overall trip speed (charging plus riding).

The milestone with travel is to have 20kWh of capacity with at least 15kW of AC (via multiple plugs or a single Tesla full-spec destination plug) or 20kW of DC charging. The SR/F is within sight of it, but the manufacturer does not put credence in that picture yet and Farasis hasn't delivered another bump in cell density.

I'm just glad that the new frame supports about 500lbs of passengers+cargo, and 18kWh is close enough that aerodynamics can push into the zone of relative comfort when traveling. Also, the new architecture seems like it'll take care of components better, and the new frame seems easier to attach fairing supports to.

[pacificcricket]

Dynamic pack reconfiguration is going to be a little tricky if they continue to use Power Tanks as a separate parallel battery.

At very low SOC (10%) the pack voltage is < 100V. Doubled, that might be an issue for stations that can go down to only 200 volts. Perhaps they would grow the packs to 30 series cells or similar.

Correct me if I'm wrong, all of current Zero packs are built by paralleling 28s strings. There are 3 or 4 of such strings paralleled in the main pack, and then power tank adds 1 more.
If you connect them all in series, you get 310, 414 or 518 volts nominal voltage well within the range of the DC chargers.

[togo]

Yeah, pacificcricket, being able to switch from parallel to series configuration would get you that, it's an interesting concept, but requiring a lot of wiring and a lot more concern of potential access to high voltage.  It'll be interesting to see what direction they go.

Current monoliths are a pair of longbricks rather than 4 bricks though, and one of the benefits of this was said to be less heavy copper wiring.  In your scheme a longbrick would be switchable 28S2P to 56S1P, I guess, and the whole monolith from 28S4P to 112S1P.  Interesting.  A lot of contactors there.

[pacificcricket]

Yeah, pacificcricket, being able to switch from parallel to series configuration would get you that, it's an interesting concept, but requiring a lot of wiring and a lot more concern of potential access to high voltage.  It'll be interesting to see what direction they go.

Current monoliths are a pair of longbricks rather than 4 bricks though, and one of the benefits of this was said to be less heavy copper wiring.  In your scheme a longbrick would be switchable 28S2P to 56S1P, I guess, and the whole monolith from 28S4P to 112S1P.  Interesting.  A lot of contactors there.

A thing to remember is that the amount of current going through the series cells will be significantly lower than what is currently supplied to the paralleled pack for "fast" charging. So for example, if say pack has 28S4P configuration with 27Ah Farasis cells,
to charge it in 1 hour you need to supply some 117 volts at 108A. If you reconfigure it into 112S1P, it will charge at 470V and 27A. So the contactors providing for string interconnects only need to handle those 27 amps. Those would be some tiny contactors, easily solid state. At the same time the wiring to handle such current can be reduced in size quite a bit as well. For example, 10AWG wire (5.26 sq mm) can handle up to 30A in DC applications.

Now for paralleling them requirements are different. Assuming pretty standard load max of 5C, that's 135A per string, which is what series contactor would have to handle, though the motor controller may reduce it further.

[togo]

> A thing to remember is that the amount of current going through the series cells will be significantly lower ...

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[grmarks]

It would also be possible to have a box to convert DC charge current to 240V AC then run it into the onboard chargers and a bigger charge tank charger. Not as efficient though or cost-effective but possible. The whole setup would just be a DC charge tank in one unit.

[protomech]

Reconfiguring all cells into a single string sounds hard.

Abandoning the Power Tank and using two slightly-larger longbricks in 30- or 32-series would allow for the dynamic reconfiguration BrianTRice describes. 125A "50 kW" CCS could support 2C charge for 0-80% in 25 minutes, which is probably pushing an air-cooled battery pretty hard.

Zero has a bunch of smart engineers - no doubt they considered this route. Perhaps they decided it added too much complexity, or maintaining a 32-series and a 28-series powertrain was too difficult, or they simply thought high-power L2 charging was a better option than a complex L3 charging setup.

However it went, I would be surprised to see L3 support from Zero now for several years.

[Richard230]

It would be unwise to underestimate the appeal of the "commuter-only" machine, even if commuting is truly the only purpose for the vehicle. For most drivers, commuting is far and away how they spend the majority of their miles.

But these bikes are far more versatile than that, anyhow. I've done club rides from where I live in El Cajon to Borrego Springs, about 150 miles round trip. Granted, I generally meet my club partway up the ride after a fresh recharge, and convince them to stop in Borrego for another recharge, then break off early for a final recharge, but so what? I still get to do >50% of the ride with them, and the rest by myself, and it's a great day of riding.

I've also ridden up to visit my family in Orange County, 180 miles or so round trip, which also works out great. I also did a one-day 263-mile trip, just so I could join the "250 miles in one day" club. It was a long day but a good day.

For me, I don't WANT longer trips very often, if ever. It just means more time spent in the saddle with a sore butt and stiff legs. They're supposed to be pleasure rides, not bummer rides.

I couldn’t agree with this more.  I am looking for a e-motorcycle for the everyday short trips and short pleasurable rides.  I still have my ICE tourer  with big comforatable seat and forward foot boards for the long trips.  The SR/F fits perfectly in this plan.  But that is just me,  I know everyone’s needs are different.

I use my Zero to replace my car for relatively short rides to visit relatives, going shopping, doctor appointments and similar utility purposes. I have cut down my car's yearly mileage to around 300 miles.  To me riding motorcycles is just enjoyable transportation that I use to get from here to there.  If I was still working, I would be using it for commuting to work as I did with my Electric Motorsport GPR-S.

[pacificcricket]

It would also be possible to have a box to convert DC charge current to 240V AC then run it into the onboard chargers and a bigger charge tank charger. Not as efficient though or cost-effective but possible. The whole setup would just be a DC charge tank in one unit.

That's actually difficult / expensive / bulky. Have you seen Sevcon 300W (500W on newer models) DC-DC converter on Zero bikes ? Now think about what it would look like to have that for 14,000W.