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[Richard230]

Keyless is the way to go. Ever since I got a car with keyless I've never looked back. It's simply far more convenient, and with modern keys costing far more than the metal they're made of due to having security chips, I don't even see cost as an advantage of keyed systems.

The 2019 Monkey also has a keyless system and a built in alarm -in the UK, but the US version has neither of these features. (And uglier indicators) I wonder if the new Cub is the same.

According to the U.S. press review that I read, the Cub does come with a key fob system.  However, there was no mention of an alarm.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

I've worked in the software industry for two decades, and worked at an infosec company and with many infosec professionals over the years. I've chatted with vehicle hackers at DefCon.

So, when I say that keyless fob systems are pretty much a joke to impersonate or spoof, please take me seriously. If a vendor came out with this, I know who I could take it to for assessment, and I would bet on the implementation being irrevocably flawed.

For reference, I think all electronic voting machines are grossly insecure and elections are most secure when conducted by confidential but accountable paper ballots.

[DonTom]

So, when I say that keyless fob systems are pretty much a joke to impersonate or spoof, please take me seriously. If a vendor came out with this, I know who I could take it to for assessment, and I would bet on the implementation being irrevocably flawed.

Are you talking about FOBS that use the rolling code technology?

If so, I would like to hear about such flaws.

IMO, they are much better than keys--even more reliable. I have had to replace many ignition locks. I have never had a problem with any of my Fobs.

-Don- Auburn, CA

[JaimeC]

So, when I say that keyless fob systems are pretty much a joke to impersonate or spoof, please take me seriously. If a vendor came out with this, I know who I could take it to for assessment, and I would bet on the implementation being irrevocably flawed.

Are you talking about FOBS that use the rolling code technology?

If so, I would like to hear about such flaws.

IMO, they are much better than keys--even more reliable. I have had to replace many ignition locks. I have never had a problem with any of my Fobs.

-Don- Auburn, CA

Fobs are too new for me to have any kind of assessment BUT I've been driving cars since 1975 and motorcycles since 1982.  I have NEVER had to replace an ignition lock on ANY of my vehicles, and I tend to keep them until I run them into the ground (I'm not the kind of person who buys a new vehicle every few years).  For reference, I had my last Subaru for 17 years and JUST replaced it a year ago.  I still have my 1999 K1200LT which will be twenty years old in July and has over 214,000 miles.

And by an odd coincidence, the K1200LT had a security fob which I had to use in conjunction with the ignition key.  A couple of years ago I was stranded in Savannah GA on my way back from Daytona Bike Week because the fob fell off the key ring somewhere on I-95.  After lunch I was unable to start the bike and had it towed to a nearby hotel (naturally this was on a Saturday and the closest BMW dealer was over 100 miles away).  Thanks to Google and YouTube I found the information I needed to disable the anti-theft system and I was able to continue my ride home the following day.  I've since had the alarm system removed, I figure no one would want to steal a bike that old with that many miles anyway.  Just the trusty old steel key from now on.

[NEW2elec]

I posted about Energica's new prototype with Samsung that uses your smart whatever as your key.  Figuring you'll never be without it.
I see pros and cons to both.  Maybe facial recognition or something in the future that you just can't lose or copy.

For now I'll take an old key and theft insurance.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

My 2013 DS was stolen by coring out the lock, so I’m mindful of security concerns.

I think that even with a rolling code, the security of a system involves a whole system analysis that a vehicle manufacturer does not have the ability to assess and retain. This is analogous to how government IT projects tend to fail, because bureaucrats must hire and retain competent people while paying below market rates. There just aren’t enough people who are experts in threat analysis, cryptographic implementation analysis, and embedded systems coding to hire at an economical rate.

Any mathematical or systems composition flaw can result in the codes being predictable without the designer having made a mistake of competence. PRNGs have flaws, as well as the coding of firmware that uses the algorithms can accidentally reduce the dimensional space to search for a code break.

Hackers have side channels like knowing the serial number on the bike or when it was booted or they might measure timing of signals or responses from the vehicle to infer information the systems designer wanted to hide. And it might be enough information to crack the code.

I’m not saying it can’t be done. I’m saying I’ve met really smart people in this space and have listened enough to understand how risky it is to attempt this, especially based on the track record of car fobs.

[flattetyre]

These are motorcycles guys. You can just throw em in a van and mess with it later.

[GaryArt1]

These are motorcycles guys. You can just throw em in a van and mess with it later.

This is exactly like I feel.  It is like the discussion (argument) my wife and I had when I installed an electronic smart lock on our house door. She was worried about the would be robber using sophisticated computer technology to hack into our lock.  I was worried about the junkie with the free rock from my yard breaking the window 2 feet from the door and just climbing in.  With a motorcycle the easiest way to steal it is a couple guys with a van or pickup lift it in.  So I would rather have the convenience of a keyless ignition and deal with the slight chance someone with the right electronic equipment will target my bike.

I think the best theft deterent the Zeros has is that with the small quantity of them sold, there is not a huge parts market.  You steal a Honda Gold wing, you can probably part it out for 3x the price of the bike and would have no problem getting people to buy.  I don't think this is so with the Zeros.

[Alan Stewart]

Any security system can be defeated, one way or another. There has to be some way to defeat it for the case where the rightful owner loses access. And as @flattetyre says, a motorcycle can be loaded on a truck or a car onto a flatbed truck. The purpose of any security system is to make theft less convenient, increase the risk of being apprehended, and thus less likely to occur. On a day to day basis I’ll take the convenience of keyless.

[Curt]

My motivation for keyless is also not theft prevention, but sheer convenience. It's so quick to jump on an e-bike and drive off that putting in the key is annoying. And then I forgot to close the top box and have to use it twice more. Meanwhile, the keys have stripped the paint off the triple clamp (yes, this the biggest drawback to my FX, haha).

I think the best theft deterent the Zeros has is that with the small quantity of them sold, there is not a huge parts market.  You steal a Honda Gold wing, you can probably part it out for 3x the price of the bike and would have no problem getting people to buy.  I don't think this is so with the Zeros.

I doubt a common thief would give any thought to future maintenance, especially the idiot ones in San Francisco that stole my friend's helmet by cutting off the freaking D rings. They can have this super cool toy and just keep plugging it into the wall until it's dead. E-bikes could start getting targeted once they're more popular.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

The point is that a fob spoofer once assembled / programmed is easier and lower-risk to use than coring the lock or throwing the bike in a van.

Convenience for the owner can become convenience for the thief/vandal if the system isn't secured as a whole.

[heroto]

This thread is a big ad for investing in Alcoa (aluminum foil manufacturer)
My tin foil key cover and matching hat are already deployed!

FWIW, I've owned many motos and cars with and without keyless ignition. For cars, it's been a real plus. Less so for motos. That sounds irrational (tinfoil hats again), but IMHO firing up a car is not the same as firing up a motorcycle. So much more stuff requires attention for a motorcycle driver. Insert and turn that key and be reminded that every car, pedestrian and deer within 30 meters of you is going to kill you if you let them. Fussing with that key can be a useful good wakeup call. YMMV.

[Crilly]

It use to be “who dies with the most pistons wins”.  Now it’s has the most fobs wins.

A key chain full of fobs just does not make it.

[Doug S]

I guess I'm not clear what functionality a key fob really provides for a motorcycle.

On my car, I walk up to it with the fob in my pocket, touch the door handle, the car beeps and unlocks. Then I get in and push a button, and again, because of the proximity of the key fob, the car starts and runs. That already seems marginal in utility. Pushing a button is somehow better than turning a key? I guess it's cool that I don't have to dig my keys out of my pocket.

On the bike, I suppose if the key fob is near, pushing a button would start the bike and unlock the fork, rather than turning the key. So again, I suppose it's nice that I don't have to dig the key out of my pocket.

I guess I don't see that that tiny bit of convenience is worth the extra expense, weight, and complication of creating an always-on power supply on the bike (so it can recognize the proximity of the key fob), a solenoid to lock/unlock the fork, and anyhow I still want a key as backup for when the key fob battery runs out or the key fob gets crunched or dropped in water.

I'm an incredibly lazy bastard, but I'm really okay with digging my key out of my pocket.

[DPsSRnSD]

I guess I don't see that that tiny bit of convenience is worth the extra expense, weight, and complication of creating an always-on power supply on the bike (so it can recognize the proximity of the key fob), a solenoid to lock/unlock the fork, and anyhow I still want a key as backup for when the key fob battery runs out or the key fob gets crunched or dropped in water.

In the rain, right now I put the loop of my key lanyard through a velcro loop on my gloves, hoping I don't drop them. My fingers are occupied carrying the side cases holding stuff I want to keep dry. It's impossible to fish the keys out of my riding pants pocket unless I take off my gloves; which I'm trying to avoid to keep the glove liner dry. I guess I could put the keys in the unprotected jacket pocket where my garage door fob normally goes when it's dry, but there's still some fishing around and putting water in the pocket before it gets there on its own. It would be much easier and quicker, though, if the bike got itself ready as I walked up; sensing a fob inside a protected pocket. I'd also be okay with adding the requirement to enter a PIN, like Tesla is now doing (ID verification with something you have and something you know). Not cheap but extremely cool.