Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Doug S]

Look, when you're using a power saw, there's a finite risk you'll cut off a finger or two. It's the user's responsibility to use the tool correctly and NOT DO THAT. You can build a lot of cool stuff with a good circular saw, or you can do a lot of damage. It's not the tool's fault if bad things happen instead of good.

Traction control is a good thing, just like ABS is. They can both enhance safety when riding a bike. But neither one of them is necessary to ride a motorcycle safely, given proper riding skills, and neither one of them will keep you safe if you don't have those riding skills.

[Richard230]

Look, when you're using a power saw, there's a finite risk you'll cut off a finger or two. It's the user's responsibility to use the tool correctly and NOT DO THAT. You can build a lot of cool stuff with a good circular saw, or you can do a lot of damage. It's not the tool's fault if bad things happen instead of good.

Traction control is a good thing, just like ABS is. They can both enhance safety when riding a bike. But neither one of them is necessary to ride a motorcycle safely, given proper riding skills, and neither one of them will keep you safe if you don't have those riding skills.

Kind of like "auto pilot" systems on cars?   

[Jarrett]

Here is the video from all the angles.  He wasn't on the paint:

[Jarrett]

It's curious to me that if you search this forum and YouTube, you'll find a recurring theme that goes something like this:

"I'm an experienced rider with X years/thousands of miles on many ICE bikes and while riding my R model Zero, the back tire unexpectedly spun out and I crashed.  This has never happened to me in X years/thousands of miles on ICE bikes"

In just a few days of searching, I've seen that posted over and over about the R model Zero's.  It makes me wonder if there is an issue there.

[NEW2elec]

Ok left leg out in a turn ,looks to me like it touches the road, that I'd say went on longer than he thought it would after passing a rider over double yellow lines on a twisty mountain road on a bike he's not used to.
Annnnd he crashes, wow, I never saw that coming.

The theme can be explained by the fact that yes the two types of bikes work differently and it's years on one type that builds habits that don't work for the other.  Twisting the throttle on a gas bike, sub super bike, takes a few moments to really spool up and if you feel it slipping you can pull in the clutch and let off the throttle and maybe stop your spin.

The throttle on electrics takes a lighter twist that is just a matter of getting used to.  All of my adult riding miles are on electric starting in my forties and I have never had wheel slip for more than a quick instant going over dirt and gravel spilled into the road.  I've never laid either bike down and feel in complete command of my speed.  At slow speeds electric is so superior it isn't even close.  I'm upright before I ever goose the throttle and all is well.

[caza]

The zero might actually be safer for a new rider than an experienced rider.

You're muscle memory for what has worked on ICE bikes is not going to transfer over to the instant torque and linear throttle of an electric bike.

If you come over from ICE bikes and don't understand and respect the difference, I could easily see you relying on muscle memory and giving the bike too much throttle in a turn.

Again, it doesn't make the bike itself more dangerous, but operator error makes any machine dangerous.

Would traction control help mitigate operator error? Yes. Is it necessary for the bike itself to be safe. No.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

On current models, it's the fast wheel spinup once traction breaks loose that makes recovery on a Zero more difficult. I'm trained on it, but it took time, and when I lose traction on gravel and mud, it's still an unpleasant experience compared to my ICE bike.

It's my understanding that Zero can implement this effectively on existing models, and let users toggle out of it with an override when appropriate, to keep everyone a little safer and happier, and probably waste less of everyone's money on repairs and injuries.

[domingo3]

Look, when you're using a power saw, there's a finite risk you'll cut off a finger or two. It's the user's responsibility to use the tool correctly and NOT DO THAT. You can build a lot of cool stuff with a good circular saw, or you can do a lot of damage. It's not the tool's fault if bad things happen instead of good.

Traction control is a good thing, just like ABS is. They can both enhance safety when riding a bike. But neither one of them is necessary to ride a motorcycle safely, given proper riding skills, and neither one of them will keep you safe if you don't have those riding skills.

I have a healthy respect for anyone who looks at a power saw and says, "Yeah, you probably shouldn't let me use that because I'd hurt myself."  Also, I think few, if any, people are saying that Zero is culpable for riders that do dumb things and crash.

It's curious to me that if you search this forum and YouTube, you'll find a recurring theme that goes something like this:

"I'm an experienced rider with X years/thousands of miles on many ICE bikes and while riding my R model Zero, the back tire unexpectedly spun out and I crashed.  This has never happened to me in X years/thousands of miles on ICE bikes"

In just a few days of searching, I've seen that posted over and over about the R model Zero's.  It makes me wonder if there is an issue there.

To me, the issue is clear and can be summed up succinctly:

1.  The power delivery is different with an electric bike such that the same throttle action on an ICE bike would not have caused a crash.
2.  It was my own fault and I learned my lesson.

  I think experienced riders may be more susceptible to crashing in these cases than a new rider because they have confidence.  When riding through a suburban neighborhood like where I crashed, I wouldn't have been red-lining the engine if I was on an ICE bike. If I was on a similar sized ICE bike at low to moderate RPM, I could have whacked open the throttle at the moment that I did and been fine because I'd have been way below the power band.  I didn't consciously think through all of this, but probably subconsciously I equated the feel and sound of the bike and what I was doing with my wrist action and down I went.

[Curt]

Once during a ride a friend let me try his Hayabusa up Hwy 9. Coming out of the corner at 236 (before the stop sign went up), I applied a seemingly small amount of extra throttle and the rear end began to come around. I was familiar with the mechanics of that situation, but had never experienced it in practice. Fortunately, I managed to let off the throttle in a split second and ride it out.

Another time, my friend on an R6 was pulling out of a gas station onto ECR when she hit the throttle too hard and high-sided right there.

I don't see the electric bike as being any worse as long as it's power is respected for what it is. Maybe it's easier to forget. But if anything, I overcompensate and am unnecessarily conservative, particularly if I'm not in full gear, but also because I just got tired of solo crashing around 10 years ago.

My BMW 540i traction control is actually pretty annoying. On occasions when I intend to pull out of a driveway quickly, I find the power shutting down at the wrong moment... and there I am puttering out into the high speed traffic. That sucks.

[dennis-NL]

For me: why the hell does someone gets his leg out and unbalance the bike in the first place?
Keep it on the pegs, allways.
Sure, pro's do it on a circuit, but we are not on both probably.

But, back to discussion.
Just a rider error here. He wasn't in control here.
The turn came up faster and sharper as expected.
The guy in front also had a problem in the corner.
Direct drive is awesome on the Zero, but pay respect to it.

For total control on driving a Zero I never found myself more comfortable on any ICE bike.
No sudden power push or loss when on the power.
On an EV everything is 1 on 1 with your wrist, smooth delivery.
So I don't think new or old drivers makes much difference.
Just respect the power you got and never pull full open if you are in a corner, it will bite.
On an ICE you have delay, even at 7000rpm, on an EV it's without delay.

So traction control would be very helpfull just like any safety system.
But it's not needed...adjust your driving itself first... 

[Richard230]

My thought is that ICE motorcycles have considerable "flywheel"effect, which slows down the throttle response and rear wheel spin on a slippery surface. This can give the rider a second or two to cut power and control the spin.  However, electric motorcycles have almost no flywheel inertia, which makes it hard to catch the rear wheel and back off acceleration when it suddenly spins.  You need to be on the ball and have quick reactions when that happens.  Not all of us are that quick on the draw. 

[centra12]

For me: why the hell does someone gets his leg out and unbalance the bike in the first place?
Keep it on the pegs, allways.
Sure, pro's do it on a circuit, but we are not on both probably.

But, back to discussion.
Just a rider error here. He wasn't in control here.
The turn came up faster and sharper as expected.
The guy in front also had a problem in the corner.
Direct drive is awesome on the Zero, but pay respect to it.

For total control on driving a Zero I never found myself more comfortable on any ICE bike.
No sudden power push or loss when on the power.
On an EV everything is 1 on 1 with your wrist, smooth delivery.
So I don't think new or old drivers makes much difference.
Just respect the power you got and never pull full open if you are in a corner, it will bite.
On an ICE you have delay, even at 7000rpm, on an EV it's without delay.

So traction control would be very helpfull just like any safety system.
But it's not needed...adjust your driving itself first... 

This is called "Leg Wave" and is used if you have overestimated yourself in the curve. It can be seen that he have misjudged the curve and theZero straightens up (0,30) and then wants to pull inwards with this movement. Unfortunately he has been doing this for quite some time, so I don't think he knows what he's doing.
He would only have had to retract his foot before accelerating, the Zero would have straightened up and thus had more traction.

[centra12]

My thought is that ICE motorcycles have considerable "flywheel"effect, which slows down the throttle response and rear wheel spin on a slippery surface. This can give the rider a second or two to cut power and control the spin.  However, electric motorcycles have almost no flywheel inertia, which makes it hard to catch the rear wheel and back off acceleration when it suddenly spins.  You need to be on the ball and have quick reactions when that happens.  Not all of us are that quick on the draw. 

More than 100Nm and only a narrow tyre of 130 or 140 just get along badly in the curve.
A bigger tyre would cost too much distance.

[Crilly]

Balance bike first. Then reduce throttle. Pick line.

Find a steep gravel hill and learn to spin rear wheel all day long. (Going up)

[Killroy]

My thought is that ICE motorcycles have considerable "flywheel"effect, which slows down the throttle response and rear wheel spin on a slippery surface. This can give the rider a second or two to cut power and control the spin.  However, electric motorcycles have almost no flywheel inertia, which makes it hard to catch the rear wheel and back off acceleration when it suddenly spins.  You need to be on the ball and have quick reactions when that happens.  Not all of us are that quick on the draw. 

More than 100Nm and only a narrow tyre of 130 or 140 just get along badly in the curve.
A bigger tyre would cost too much distance.

While I have not had any crashes on my Zero, I do agree with your theory.  Once traction breaks, the motor and wheel probably accelerate very quickly. 

"The Big Bang theory" in motorcycles is that in a ICE vehicle the tire recovers from the power stroke and if you could group all the power strokes together and add more time in between them, then the motorcycle would maintain traction.  It was just a theory, but it was interesting. 

I run a 150 tire.  There are more options and you can get some deals.  No issues even though the tire is a slightly larger diameter.  The tire looks better and I get a little more rubber.