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[Richard230]

I think the big problem with rear wheel traction on slippery surfaces is the lack of a flywheel to restrain and slow down the instant spin when the wheel momentarily looses traction.  I have been riding motorcycles for 57 years and have never had a rear wheel loose traction and spin violently the way my Zero did a couple of years ago while entering a freeway on-ramp.  The wheel lost traction and spun up before I could react and shut the throttle. The entire bike shook violently before I was able to shut the throttle, which brought things under control.  Nothing like that had every happened to me in 800k miles of riding ICE motorcycles.  I really believe that Zero needs to implement traction control. If BMW can do it on their C-Evolution scooter then Zero should be able to do it too. If you have the sensors to deal with ABS then you would think that is what you need for a traction control system.  That plus programming that compares rear wheel speed with front wheel rotation.

[BamBam]

Yep, I think you hit the nail on the head Richard. When the rear tire breaks loose on a Zero it revs up so fast there's very little you can do to control the bike and down you go. I wasn't a big proponent of traction control, but after having this happen to me twice on a Zero I'm becoming a convert.

I've been riding for a long time too and have well over 100K on two wheels, and like you have never had this happen to me on an ICE bike. It's just something you have to be very aware of when riding a Zero where traction is compromised by poor road conditions and cold tires.

[DonTom]

I would like to offer a few comments regarding the use of Eco mode.   On my 2017 DSR anyway, I find that the throttle response in Eco mode is so reduced that it makes the bike unsafe to ride.  To me Eco mode is essentially useless except in a very specific situation and then only for a very short duration.

Yep. Not ideal in any kind of traffic.

FWIW, my 2017 Zero DS <no "R">  ZF 6.5 has MUCH  more power in the eco mode than does my 2017 SR. But when in the Sport Mode then the SR is MUCH  more powerful than my DS.  Large difference between sport mode and eco mode in the SR.  Much smaller difference in the DS between eco and sport modes.

-Don-  Reno, NV

[Curt]

Eco mode is good stuff when trying to eek out the last bit of range, but isn't a way to avoid crashing, nor a substitute for traction control. Zero will certainly come out with traction control in the next couple years. Besides it being among the most requested of features, all the necessary hardware is there so it's just a simple matter of programming (SMOP, as we used to call it at IBM). TC will be a big selling point for Zero at little recurring cost.

Many of us went through a "ride like a knob" phase as depicted here, or are still going through it (naturally wearing comprehensive gear to prepare for the inevitable). It's an interesting trade-off. We get to know two-wheel handling dynamics really well and become experienced and safer riders for life, but that cannot happen without dedication and multiple crashes that are a crap-shoot. Those who get past that phase without long term injury are lucky and can back off, and for that reason I have sympathy for newer riders.

[Doug S]

I would like to offer a few comments regarding the use of Eco mode.   On my 2017 DSR anyway, I find that the throttle response in Eco mode is so reduced that it makes the bike unsafe to ride.  To me Eco mode is essentially useless except in a very specific situation and then only for a very short duration.

I agree that Eco mode is pretty useless. I won't ride on the freeway without some getaway power, just in case I need it. It's possible to do anything in Sport mode that you can do in Eco mode -- just exercise some restraint with your right wrist. I'll admit there's some benefit to safety features like traction control, ABS and the like, but just sabotaging the performance of the machine doesn't seem like it adds much safety, and it certainly does subtract from the convenience and fun of riding the bike.

I really think the whole "mode" thing is for potential buyers with no EV experience. It's sold as this great range-maximizing feature that will help alleviate range anxiety, and I suppose it probably does that with naive potential buyers. But to me, it 's much like regen....sounds great in principal, but highly overrated as far as usefulness in the real world.

I suppose you could make the argument that it's possible to set up Custom mode to reduce the maximum torque available, but not limit top speed. I still don't like that solution, you still can't accelerate your way out of trouble very well, but it would at least give you the opportunity to go faster on the freeway if there's a reason to.

[heroto]

Custom mode lets you coast. Very nice.

[Fran K]

The Zero design uses the swingarm pivot as the location of the drive sprocket.  This has a lot of advantages.  BMW made a 450 cc single cylinder race bike they called it CTS that had similar placement of the front sprocket.  Trouble is they hired the best race riders they could and they kept crashing and getting hurt.  At least that is what I obsereved. 

[Apriliarsv]

Pavement may have been a bit slick. It did appear to have a sheen.
It also looks like they may have been riding over the speed limit .

I agree it would be easy to have a electronic power limit. Make one where the motor can only gain so many rpm's per second. Sport mode should be this limit on dry pavement. Touring mode should be 15% (or so) less and rain mode even less.

[Skidz]

Yes, and yes. The Zero bit me in the arse in the first 500km's but that was my own damn fault, thinking that scraping the peg in a tight corner whilst WOT'ing at 50km/h was a good idea. If I would have done the same on any of my ICE bikes, I would have gone down as well so not the Zero's fault. Typical case of brainfart.
Anyway, carried the scars on the bike for a while reminding me not to be such a stubborn fool and carried on

[BamBam]

I would like to offer a few comments regarding the use of Eco mode.   On my 2017 DSR anyway, I find that the throttle response in Eco mode is so reduced that it makes the bike unsafe to ride.  To me Eco mode is essentially useless except in a very specific situation and then only for a very short duration.

Yep. Not ideal in any kind of traffic.

FWIW, my 2017 Zero DS <no "R">  ZF 6.5 has MUCH  more power in the eco mode than does my 2017 SR. But when in the Sport Mode then the SR is MUCH  more powerful than my DS.  Large difference between sport mode and eco mode in the SR.  Much smaller difference in the DS between eco and sport modes.

-Don-  Reno, NV

I wonder why that is?  The difference between Eco mode and Sport mode on my 2017 DSR is dramatic.  So much so that I don't even feel safe riding in Eco mode.  Maybe it has something to do with the "R" models.

The difference between Eco mode and Sport mode on my 2017 FXS was much less dramatic and worked fine.  That actually had some benefit, but on my DSR it is useless because it is so lame.

[DonTom]

I wonder why that is?  The difference between Eco mode and Sport mode on my 2017 DSR is dramatic.  So much so that I don't even feel safe riding in Eco mode.  Maybe it has something to do with the "R" models.

The difference between Eco mode and Sport mode on my 2017 FXS was much less dramatic and worked fine.  That actually had some benefit, but on my DSR it is useless because it is so lame.

I have a couple of guesses, but they are only guesses. One was the extra weight compared to my DS 6.5. My SR has the Power Tank, so it weights quite a bit more. But I don't think the extra 141 lbs in weight would make that much difference in the eco mode.

My next guess is they were  trying to get the best range possible out of their top-of-the line bike for 2017, so they limited the performance in the eco mode. I think this is more likely.

FWIW, I do most of my riding in the eco mode. But I mainly stay off the freeway, trying to always get the best range on a charge.

But when I am on the freeway, or a long fast road with few stops, I switch to my custom mode, which I have set for:

top speed   =  87 MPH
Max Torque = 86%
Max Reg     = 25%
Brake Reg  =100%

I find no use for the sport mode, I use either eco or custom, and switch between them as needed.

BTW, I used to have the top speed set to 75 MPH, until I found out how dangerous that was, where you have to go below 60 MPH to change modes.  Forced to slow down to speed up?  I wonder who comes up with such dangerous stupid ideas at Zero. 

-Don-  Auburn, CA

[NEW2elec]

My 13 DS vs my 17 DSR is the same way.
The DS surface magnet motor has a good bit more off the line "snap" than the DSR IPM motor.

MY 17 DSR eco mode is almost unsafe light torque off the line.  The sport mode on the DSR gets you to 60 MPH much faster than the old DS but even sport mode lacks that "snap".

Only about 18 pound increase on the DSR just different motor types and bike mapping.

[Richard230]

My 13 DS vs my 17 DSR is the same way.
The DS surface magnet motor has a good bit more off the line "snap" than the DSR IPM motor.

MY 17 DSR eco mode is almost unsafe light torque off the line.  The sport mode on the DSR gets you to 60 MPH much faster than the old DS but even sport mode lacks that "snap".

Only about 18 pound increase on the DSR just different motor types and bike mapping.

I feel that way, too. Just from my "seat of the pants" recollection, it feels like my 2018 S pulls a little slower than did my 2014 S.  The 2014 model weighs about 10 pounds less than the newer bike, but the difference in acceleration seems greater than that small amount of additional weight would account for.   

[dittoalex]

There is no point in getting a Zero SR vs a Zero S, because the extra power is not usable due to lack of traction control. 

[Doug S]

There is no point in getting a Zero SR vs a Zero S, because the extra power is not usable due to lack of traction control.

Oh lordy, that couldn't be more wrong. Have you ever ridden a motorcycle? I have an SR, and the extra torque (not power) is usable 99.999% of the time. The other 0.001% of the time, nobody's forcing you to twist your wrist too far.