Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Snafuperman]

I've been looking for a used Zero for months (Craigslist and CycleTrader) and only saw one for sale in the Phoenix/Tucson area.  This could imply the following:

- Not many sold
- People keep them for a long time after purchasing
- People trade them in when going to a newer bike
- All of the above ??

- Other reasons?

[acacia1731]

Your conclusions are probably right, given that Zeros lifetime sales are in the range of 10,000 bikes. 

However, there are least 29 used Zeros on cycle trader right now, throughout the US.  Shipping can be had for $200-1000 from about anywhere, which is what I did.

Good luck.

[dennis-NL]

Because from 2013 the bikes are good enough for most owners and the price is really high to just say:  I'm gonna get the new model.
Or is it just me not being able to confince myself it's really needed to upgrade because the new model...... 

[domingo3]

I've been looking for a used Zero for months (Craigslist and CycleTrader) and only saw one for sale in the Phoenix/Tucson area.  This could imply the following:

- Not many sold
- People keep them for a long time after purchasing
- People trade them in when going to a newer bike
- All of the above ??

- Other reasons?

Some combination of the above.  Chances are slim of finding a used one in your local area - you have to either be lucky or cast a wider net.  I guess it falls under the category of "People keep them for a long time after purchasing" that the resale value is not believed to be very good nor are there a lot of buyers, so some people may not even try listing them for private sale.

[Shadow]

Also what limits the used sales market: If there's no dealership in your area then there is no way to maintain the IPM motor bikes (2016 and newer) which have a regular 8000mi interval for programming as a safety consideration.

There's a lot of happy MY2015 and earlier owners out there who won't understand this side of the argument, or MY2016+ riders that don't perceive there to be any problem. What happens when your bike malfunctions because of a missed service? The motor can fail in uncontrollable acceleration or deceleration, or nothing adverse will happen. This can contribute to a fatal riding situation and besides that I've experienced this myself, I also see symptoms of it reported by others who were told that the bikes require no maintenance (or a problem with access to a local dealer) so they never did the maintenance interval.

I expect we won't hear much about this because of how few Zero Motorcycles bikes MY2016+ have been on the road long enough to get past a few of these intervals.

I did reach out to Zero Motorcycles to try and obtain the tools needed to get this service done on my own bike. The answer was very much circular insisting that there is no such issue maintaining the bikes, that owners can buy all the tools necessary to maintain the bike as directed in the owners manual, but that the tool required for doing the service listed in the owners manual was not for sale.
This email exchange ended with "Thank you for your email.  I am sorry to say that we’ll have to disagree on a number of points below, and I don’t want to enter into an email argument with you.  In the meantime, I know the sales team is looking for a new dealer in your area and I am told they might be added in as short as a couple months."

I should also mention that I've been advised to start a lawsuit, to do this or that, and honestly I just want Zero Motorcycles to produce a vehicle that can be maintained without access to a dealership.

Why would anyone buy this bike when they cannot maintain its secret software?  Software is not like physical parts, one cannot simply swap out pieces of it.

I suppose for that reason we will see the MY2016+ used market struggle in the 10 and 20 year outlook. If for instance Zero Motorcycles were to encounter some kind of unforseen action which invalidates its dealership contracts, we're all (MY2016+) totally screwed for support. You can't just take an IPM motor off a wrecked bike and slap it into another of the same model year bike, it requires programming from a dealership and even if they have the tool they also need an active service account with Zero Motorcycles.

[pacificcricket]

I should also mention that I've been advised to start a lawsuit, to do this or that, and honestly I just want Zero Motorcycles to produce a vehicle that can be maintained without access to a dealership.

I assume you're familiar with the recent John Deere software controversy ?

[Richard230]

Why couldn't the "conditioning" program be accomplished via a MMB firmware update, assuming that no physical settings have to be adjusted? Why couldn't a firmware program "condition" the motor as you rode along?  My recollection is that when the 2012 motors were suffering the "glitch" due to loosing magnetic synchronization, Zero was able to make them self-adjusting via a recall program and a dealer-installed software update. 

[Shadow]

I assume you're familiar with the recent John Deere software controversy ?

Yep. I have insisted on opensource software for my day-to-day needs about 20+ years now. That I even took a chance on buying a Zero Motorcycle vehicle (I wanted EV on a budget... never had a bike before and needed better range / Level 2 charging rate per mile than the next cheapest EV a used Nissan Leaf available in 2016) is based on not fully understanding that "commissioning" required as an interval service in the owner manual is dealer-only and that Zero Motorcycles fails to support their customers in that regard. Otherwise I've had pretty good support from individual people at Zero Motorcycles, but I am aware of a cultural problem at Zero and the market relationship to Dealerships. This was all new ground for me to work through in 2 years of ownership. I have arrived at a conclusion that Zero Motorcycles vehicles in the absence of authorized Dealerships are disposable toys. That it is proprietary and blackbox software running the computers is not as much of a problem for me as the dumpster fire of support issues that cannot and never will be addressed either by omission ("My bike has been great to ride for a few miles once a year, I don't notice any problems, I will never upgrade the firmware"), negligence ("The moto dealership told me there is no service needed so I am not going to"), or willful failure to support the customer ("No that service tool is not for sale. Go Away. Goodbye. Stop talking to us about this.").

Why couldn't the "conditioning" program be accomplished via a MMB firmware update, assuming that no physical settings have to be adjusted? Why couldn't a firmware program "condition" the motor as you rode along?  My recollection is that when the 2012 motors were suffering the "glitch" due to loosing magnetic synchronization, Zero was able to make them self-adjusting via a recall program and a dealer-installed software update. 

That would be awesome for the IPM platform. I would still "feel" a bit weird about having proprietary software but it would be acceptable as a product, to have a built-in calibration routine.

Previously the routine was to put the bike on a hoist to get the drive wheel spinning freely, start the laptop program connected to the bike with dealer cables, and twist the throttle while watching the laptop software graph plot while dots appear based on the parameters. When enough of the dots are appearing within a bounding box on the graph, the calibration is complete.

[Snafuperman]

Thanks for the replies.

I've been sitting on the fence, as far as buying a Zero.  Now you guys are making me want to jump down on the "no sale" side of the fence.   

[caza]

It's really unsurprising if you look at the used motorcycle market in general, and at EV adoption in general.

Aside from the most popular bikes, it's hard to find many of any particular model. Bikes don't sell well in the US so it's much harder to find anything than it would to find a similar car.

And this bike is electric. Electric cars are what, less than 1% of the car market? Electric motos are even less popular.

The type of person to buy one is not usually the type of person to sell it quickly, especially since with no real competition and no significant changes in 7 years there's little reason to upgrade.

[dennis-NL]

Thanks for the replies.

I've been sitting on the fence, as far as buying a Zero.  Now you guys are making me want to jump down on the "no sale" side of the fence.   

Just buy.
The amount of people on forums that are happy are always less.
Most look for a forum to find answers for something going wrong.

[Curt]

dennis-NL has it right: Ride more, worry less.

All vehicles these days are loaded with millions of lines of code of proprietary software that cannot be self-serviced, and is unlikely ever to be for reasons of trade secrets, liability and lack of interest.

People are throwing money at new Teslas left and right, despite their shaky financial position. What will Tesla owners do if all dealers disappear overnight? To them (and most of us), the vehicle is worth the gamble.

[heroto]

If Zero provides substantial upgrades, folks like me will trade in or sell and upgrade immediately. Other than the top heavy charge tank, and the incremental upgrade to the 14.4 battery pack, changes have been basically nil for a few years. New colors, mainly. This owner hopes that soon ( but not 2019, alas) Zero offers options that pretty much every major  moto manufacturer in the western world offers, even scooter company Vespa for crying out loud!: traction control, for sure. Cruise control, TPM, ambient thermometer, fairing, real windscreen, heated grips, options to place the bars into a truly upright touring position ( they shortened the cables in 2018 making that impossible on my S, WTF?!?). Check out semi active suspension on a BMW or Duc. It will blow your mind. Yo Zero, are you listening? People aren't buying Zeroes to save money, at least in the US. Make a better moto and we WILL buy it.

[Richard230]

If Zero provides substantial upgrades, folks like me will trade in or sell and upgrade immediately. Other than the top heavy charge tank, and the incremental upgrade to the 14.4 battery pack, changes have been basically nil for a few years. New colors, mainly. This owner hopes that soon ( but not 2019, alas) Zero offers options that pretty much every major  moto manufacturer in the western world offers, even scooter company Vespa for crying out loud!: traction control, for sure. Cruise control, TPM, ambient thermometer, fairing, real windscreen, heated grips, options to place the bars into a truly upright touring position ( they shortened the cables in 2018 making that impossible on my S, WTF?!?). Check out semi active suspension on a BMW or Duc. It will blow your mind. Yo Zero, are you listening? People aren't buying Zeroes to save money, at least in the US. Make a better moto and we WILL buy it.

The "semi-active" ESA suspension on my BMW R1200RS doesn't work as well as the Showa suspension on my 2018 Zero.  It is very harsh over small bumps and only has two damping selections, "road" and "dynamic". And you can hardly tell the difference between the two settings.  Plus, the ESA button-adjustable preload setting only functions occasionally.    As far as I am concerned it was a waste of money.  I should have bought the standard manual suspension, instead of the ESA system. But even that option is not nearly as adjustable as the one installed on my Zero.  However, I will admit that the BMW brakes are very much better than what comes on a Zero.

[ultrarnr]

If you have any interest in a 2016 Zero SR send me a PM. Want to get rid of it and just haven't gotten around to posting it.