Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[evcognito]

Thinking about this thread, it occurs to me that a poll of features that ICE motorcycle owners would like in an electric motorcycle might be of more help to someone designing a new EV, instead of just asking current owners and enthusiasts. What any manufacturer of a new technology wants to do is to grow the market. Asking ICE motorcycle enthusiasts and people thinking about riding would seem to me to be more interesting than asking people like us.  Polling selected Japanese motorcycle forums of models in the target price range might be useful.  You could ask about desirable features, styling, range, top speed and other general features that non-EV owners might find attractive and which would encourage them to invest in an electric motorcycle.

You're definitely right. We've been keeping tabs on many forums for a while, will probably wait until we unveil our prototype to do more public posts. That way doubts and questions are essentially answered and people can give feedback on the actual design. There's never any shortage of opinions on the internet! We were just excited to get the opinions of people who already have skin in the game. its already been very helpful!

[evcognito]

Thinking about this thread, it occurs to me that a poll of features that ICE motorcycle owners would like in an electric motorcycle might be of more help to someone designing a new EV, instead of just asking current owners and enthusiasts. What any manufacturer of a new technology wants to do is to grow the market. Asking ICE motorcycle enthusiasts and people thinking about riding would seem to me to be more interesting than asking people like us.  Polling selected Japanese motorcycle forums of models in the target price range might be useful.  You could ask about desirable features, styling, range, top speed and other general features that non-EV owners might find attractive and which would encourage them to invest in an electric motorcycle.

You might get effects like Energica's six-speed transmission.

Not good.

haha Im personally not a fan either.
There are certainly benefits, but I believe the most perfectly designed part is one that doesnt need to exist. Electric motors are more than capable of meeting the needs of most riders. Pluss the added mass and cost.... ooof.

[Richard230]

Thinking about this thread, it occurs to me that a poll of features that ICE motorcycle owners would like in an electric motorcycle might be of more help to someone designing a new EV, instead of just asking current owners and enthusiasts. What any manufacturer of a new technology wants to do is to grow the market. Asking ICE motorcycle enthusiasts and people thinking about riding would seem to me to be more interesting than asking people like us.  Polling selected Japanese motorcycle forums of models in the target price range might be useful.  You could ask about desirable features, styling, range, top speed and other general features that non-EV owners might find attractive and which would encourage them to invest in an electric motorcycle.

You might get effects like Energica's six-speed transmission.

Not good.

haha Im personally not a fan either.
There are certainly benefits, but I believe the most perfectly designed part is one that doesnt need to exist. Electric motors are more than capable of meeting the needs of most riders. Pluss the added mass and cost.... ooof.

The only electric motorcycle that had a 6-speed transmission that I know of is the Brammo/Victory Empulse. I am pretty sure the Energica has a direct drive system from the motor's single-speed gearbox to the rear wheel.

[evcognito]

Thinking about this thread, it occurs to me that a poll of features that ICE motorcycle owners would like in an electric motorcycle might be of more help to someone designing a new EV, instead of just asking current owners and enthusiasts. What any manufacturer of a new technology wants to do is to grow the market. Asking ICE motorcycle enthusiasts and people thinking about riding would seem to me to be more interesting than asking people like us.  Polling selected Japanese motorcycle forums of models in the target price range might be useful.  You could ask about desirable features, styling, range, top speed and other general features that non-EV owners might find attractive and which would encourage them to invest in an electric motorcycle.

You might get effects like Energica's six-speed transmission.

Not good.

haha Im personally not a fan either.
There are certainly benefits, but I believe the most perfectly designed part is one that doesnt need to exist. Electric motors are more than capable of meeting the needs of most riders. Pluss the added mass and cost.... ooof.

The only electric motorcycle that had a 6-speed transmission that I know of is the Brammo/Victory Empulse. I am pretty sure the Energica has a direct drive system from the motor's single-speed gearbox to the rear wheel.

Yeah the ego just has some set gearing built into the motor unit then a chain drive. I more meant I'm against the idea of putting a transmission on an electric bike. We axed that idea a while ago but it's almost always something that gets brought up when talking with ICE riders. just not worth the effort for me. Even gearing internal to the motor is tough to make work at the torque these things see. Becomes very expensive very fast

[ESokoloff]

The Zero “brake regen” by touching the brake (via brake light switch) actually works splendid imho. And it’s customable by app.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

My problem with that feature is that I have been riding ICE motorcycles for 56 years now and also currently own 5 of them, in addition to my Zero.  If there was a brake/regen lever on the left handlebar, I would probably accidentally use it like a clutch lever, but without a lever on the bar, I never try to do so.  I would prefer to have the regen integrated into the throttle where it can operate as both an accelerator and a decelerator using just one device. That would seem to be more natural to me.

I'm thinking either a backwards throttle or a left foot switch or even a momentary push button on the right grip.
My left thumb is already over worked managing the horn, turn signals, hi/low beam & garage door opener (momentary switch dbl stick taped to the bottom of the cluster).
If a left foot switch were used, two functions could be achived. Up travel could disingage regen entirely like a pulled in clutch & downward travel could add regen progressively. 
After adding throttle, regen would default to a preselected amount until the switch was again manipulated. 

I've configured the Custom mode on my Zero for max regen as it mimics engine breaking. 
My commute home takes me on a single file canyon road so I like to select Sport Mode as it nets the least amount of regen so I can "coast"  when the traffic slows down. There are a few intersections that sometimes require a hard stop if the signal changes. I will then toggle the mode button to custom for max regen.  It would be nice to be able to do that separate from the mode feature.

[netdomon]

nice 

[NEW2elec]

So Evcognito do you have an operating voltage in mind?  If you don't come out with DC charging as standard at first please keep it in mind so it can be added later.
Also have you seen/heard of Skeleton Ultra Capacitors?  I've read comments they are used in some of the EV auto racing and from their presentation on Fully Charged's channel it sounds like something to fill the "tank" with.
I vote for a left side  lever for regen but with off throttle and braking regen as the standard and the lever as the "custom" option on the fly if the rider feels they need more.
Tho only other thing that caught my attention was that you want to make most components in house?  Most of the big boys outsource to save money so be sure and really calculate that option out fully before committing one way or the other, a few bikes vs. scale.

Do keep us posted with your progress, I don't want to see another Mission flash in the pan.

[evcognito]

So Evcognito do you have an operating voltage in mind?  If you don't come out with DC charging as standard at first please keep it in mind so it can be added later.
Also have you seen/heard of Skeleton Ultra Capacitors?  I've read comments they are used in some of the EV auto racing and from their presentation on Fully Charged's channel it sounds like something to fill the "tank" with.
I vote for a left side  lever for regen but with off throttle and braking regen as the standard and the lever as the "custom" option on the fly if the rider feels they need more.
Tho only other thing that caught my attention was that you want to make most components in house?  Most of the big boys outsource to save money so be sure and really calculate that option out fully before committing one way or the other, a few bikes vs. scale.

Do keep us posted with your progress, I don't want to see another Mission flash in the pan.

Weve looked at these and other similar caps just from a educational standpoint rather than an actual feasibility study and have not had any on hand to play with. If I remember correctly the current and near future tech functions more as complementary to the battery rather than a replacement. Caps are good for high charge and discharge rates which, if one was large enough, could offload high amp cycles from the batteries extending their life. Haven't looked into this is a little while though.
Battery voltage is decided, going to stay quiet about it for now, voltage tells a lot about a power system. Suffice it to say, it's high enough to practically achieve 100kW.
Building everything in house is almost always cheaper (at the volume we plan early on) as long as care is taken to design every component and process to require minimal infrastructure from day one. It becomes a very fun puzzle as parts evolve. The gap will close as production numbers increase but for a while at least this will be the right choice for us.

[NEW2elec]

Yes complimentary for sure not to replace the battery.  They claim around 1 million charge cycles in it's life.  It should give an EV the ability to capture more of the kinetic energy in regen braking and also dump the power back out for acceleration giving the battery a break and letting it live in it's happy zone.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[caza]

I really want to see a bike where regen is implemented with smooth control.

Look at what car manufacturers are doing with "one pedal driving". I can go from 90 miles an hour to coasting to very smooth deceleration to "braking" and every little blip inbetween very easily with one pedal.

Zero's solution is to pick a setting and then apply that setting 100% as soon as you tap the brake lever or roll of the throttle. The result is the jerkiest least smooth regen I've ever used.

I like the "roll off to regen" in theory but not in practice. Requires too much rotation of the wrist for finite control, esp considering your throttle is your entire speed range and not just the range of a single gear.

Smooth gradual control of the regen is what makes it such a great feature IMO.

I think a clutch-like lever on the left hand is the smartest way to do it, but I'd also suggest thinking outside the box and implementing it in a way that's not going to get ICEr's confused with the clutch lever.

The zero has a trigger button for flash to pass, what if instead it was an adjustible trigger for regen, similar to one you'd see on a game controller. This keeps everything separate, you use regen when you want to and friction brakes when you want to, but you're not going to pull the regen when you forgot you're riding electric.

It gives you the most control while still being legacy friendly.

And again, the more you can do with software so each rider can adjust, the better. Some may never use the left hand lever, and want it on the throttle, others want it integrated on the rear-brake. There's no reason why it can't be user-selectable and customizable.

[Richard230]

I like your idea of using the headlight flashing trigger to activate regen.  I never use it to flash my headlights, anyway. 

[ultrarnr]

caza,

If it is possible/practical go test ride an Energica. With the regen set on "High" you can easily modulate it to get the motorcycle equivalent of "one pedal driving". Backing slightly off the throttle will let you coast and the more you roll off the more regen you get. You don't have a lot of movement of the throttle to go from coasting to full regen so it will take a bit to get used to it. It is really sweet once you do though.

[caza]

Definitely can't get my hands on an energica any time soon but it sounds like they have a much better implementation than zero's.

Very eager to see more and more bikes in this space so it can keep evolving.

[twiin640]

Hello New EV motorcycle company.  I hope that you're able to get this going as Zero seems to be the only game in town.  Great company and bikes from what I know.  I've had some experience working on bikes, all as a hobby and helping friends.  I built a chopper from the frame up a number of years ago and also a couple of cafe racers.  My first and so far only electric motorcycle is a 2013 Brammo Empulse R.  Excellent build quality and performance all around.  I started prepping a frame for an electric motorcycle build but abandoned it after spending
what I considered to be too much time just getting it to a rolling chassis.

All personal opinion here.  I think you'll have to have more than one bike, similar to Zero to cater to a number of different riding types.  Probably 3 at minimum.  Naked upright style, sportbike, and cruiser/touring.
Of course the sportbike should have a really good amount of power and the touring would need a lot of range.  For me to buy, I'd have to have a range of no less than 200 miles.  It would
fit my commute, riding with my friends and also my short trips.  My Brammo is an excellent motorcycle all around with great power minus one thing, it's range is way too short.  If you can only do one bike, I'd do the naked upright style and give it a good bit of power with the 200 mile real world range.  Get the price to $15K and you'll definitely compete with Zero.   

[cpallenjr]

Being in southern california, I suggest that you check out the BMW C Evolution scooter.

I have been riding ICE bikes for about 50 years and have had at least two bikes at any given time for about the last 20 years, mostly because I have not found a single bike that fulfills all my needs.  I admittedly have been a BMW fan for the last 15 years or so.  I'm not an engineer or particularly a gearhead - I just like to ride vs being cooped up in a car. I have enough money that I can buy whatever I want it just has to make sense to me in some way or another to keep.

I have had a couple of scooters (Aprilia Scarabeo 500 and a BMW C650GT) that I used for commuting and running around town for errands and just cruising around in the evening or on the weekend. The usual distance of these rides are 50 - 60 miles/day and probably less. I also will go on a day trip of 200 miles or more at least once per month and longer - up to maybe 10 day rides once or twice a year. Sport-touring and adventure bikes fill the bill there. But they really suck as commuters IMHO. I have also owned some purely pleasure bikes - off roaders, medium sporty and cruisers - but they haven't held my interest long-term. I'm not at all interested in racing, and things on the street being what they are not even going that fast anymore.

I was getting tired of shelling out for maintenance almost constantly it seemed like - especially on the scooters. They are not that easy to work on yourself. Plus it wasn't just the monetary cost but also the logistics and the time expense.

So for me, I needed an economical to operate, but high performance and fun bike that was well engineered and built with high quality materials. I checked out the C Evolution when I was down in LA for a business meeting and was so impressed that I bought one on the spot and had it shipped up to Seattle. The fact that it was an EV really wasn't all that important to me.

BMW has packaged many of the "desirable" features noted so far in this thread. In no particular order: Honest 100 mile real-world range. Active regeneration based on 4 different operating mode and actuated via 'throttle' and/or brake lever. Performance comparable (or better than) the BMW 650cc ICE Scooters. Very low maintenance requirements. Uses a direct belt drive and planetary gearset. Has Reverse, ABS, and Traction control. About the only features missing are (inexplicitly) a tire pressure monitoring system and LED headlights. Supports both L1 and L2 AC charging using a standard J1772 connector (and includes a L1 120V charger). The fit and finish is superior to any other BMW bike (again IMHO) and it rides and handles really well with dual-disc brakes and USD forks and triple tree up front and the single sided swing arm out back, The motor driveshaft is the pivot point for the swing arm so the belt maintains a constant tension and there is no on/off throttle snatch. No goofy CVT slop.

I personally like it in the scooter form factor which includes some under seat storage and weather protection and is easy to mount/dismount. I know the scooter puts some people off  but i believe the basic system functionality is the same bike or scoot, and it would be worth your time to check one out. BMW is pretty liberal with test rides so bring your helmet. I bought mine at Long Beach BMW.

Courtney in Seattle