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[Scotchman]

I have been reading everything I can find on here and elsewhere about charging.  I am an engineer (though not the electrical kind), and I am having a hard time understanding the options for quick charging and how I would make them work.  Ultimately I am trying to determine if it makes sense to get a quick charging solution which would let me use J1772 stations in the US. 

I have evaluated all of the "turnkey" solutions, of which there seem to be two; Charge Tank and Diginow.  The Charge Tank is not available after delivery, which I had specifically asked about and left the door open...but alas, was misinformed about by my dealer, and am a little upset at because I probably would have gotten it if I'd known it was a one-time decision.

The Diginow is just too expensive.  And it's not really that turnkey.  Maybe that is the state of the industry and I am being unfair, that is part of what I'm trying to determine.

I reached out to Hollywood Electrics and while they do not make offboard charging kits anymore, they offered to sell me some old inventory, but it is only 2500w and I am really looking for one unit which can take advantage of a 6kw J1772 plug.

I've seen Evtricity mentioned, but I can't find anything at all on their site (literally, their shop has no items http://evtricity.com.au/?page_id=178)

At this point I am probably more interested in an offboard charger than on; I don't want to replace the stock charger, and I won't need the fast-charging capability the majority of the time.  Being able to throw it in a bag or case opens up a lot of options though.  I'm also only really interested in one box which can do 6kw; needing multiple boxes with their attendant cables seems like it will over complicate things.

What really has my attention, and is ultimately the point of my post, is the Elcon TC HK-J 6600w charger (http://evcomponents.com/elcon-tc-hk-j-6600w-charger.html).  This thing is $789 and seems to be everything I want.  I just have no idea how I would make it work.  I gather that I need a J1772 adapter which is going to be around $50-100 at least.  What else do I need?  How do I plug it all in?  I don't want more than one box and I don't want to use more than one J1772 adapter at a time.

I have a basic understanding of voltage and current, but I do not understand "phase", how my Zero's batteries are assembled or implemented and how that interacts with my charging, what the magic communication happening between a charger and my BMS is, and if it is necessary, nice to have, or superfluous, or any of the connections involved.  Am I being unrealistic?  Really that Elcon is the reason I'm thinking I can do this the way I am envisioning, but it also seems to contradict a lot of other options which are way more expensive and complicated.

I am willing to do some work, but am not actively seeking a science project.  Turnkey would be ideal, but I am thinking that's not in the cards.  I am not willing to put my bike at risk however.

tl;dr:
What I ultimately want is a box with two cables coming out of it; one goes into my bike, the other goes into a J1772 plug, and my bike charges at 6kw.  Ideally for less than $1000 USD.  Is this possible and how do I do it?

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

There is the wiki I maintain which has a few relevant pages:
 https://zeromanual.com/index.php/Chargers
 https://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Battery

I think there's a huge problem with perception of value in the OEM, DigiNow, and other options.

- First, just hooking up an unmodified charger to your bike can damage the battery easily in a number of ways. Chargers need basic programming to ensure that they operate within the voltage range of the batter with appropriate ramping strategies, and it helps if they have fault protection both for the onboard systems and for the charger.
- Second, chargers that are not rated for weather and vibration (like the Eltek Flatpack and other related "server room" power supplies often made and sold here) can fail eventually while on the road, and may cause an electrical fault when they fail. However, they do make acceptable offboard chargers (kept stationary in a dry space - like a server room).
- Finally, communications with the motorcycle's onboard computers makes a large difference in outcomes over time in charging. DigiNow 2.5 and the OEM Charge Tank both integrate with the onboard communications bus (CANbus) to listen to the BMS and MBB boards to adjust their outputs.

That Elcon HK-J 6600 is basically 2 units of a DigiNow charger - BUT they are completely unprogrammed and not customized for the vehicle, and I'm sure if DigiNow were inquired, they'd point out that what DigiNow sells is a better version of the generic model for sale there.

The problem is that all of this costs money. If you decide to get a bargain deal, you're taking on a risk you are not qualified to assess, and could wind up damaging your vehicle.

I will additionally point out that if you wind up damaging your bike with cheap or unhomologated charging equipment, and then take it to your dealer and get upset when Zero decides that their warranty doesn't cover the damage, that this very post will be reasonable citation on their part that you are not engaging in good faith.

[MVetter]

The battery is the most expensive and valuable component of the motorcycle bar none. You don't want to skimp on things that take care of it (i.e. chargers). There's been a lot of testing, input, and help from a lot of people on this very forum to make digiNow chargers work as well as they do with the Zero batteries. So yes, you *could* make your own DIY charger from Elcon units, but it sounds like there are a lot of unknowns for you. Do you want to gamble with a $10k battery pack?

Also Brian I didn't realize the new Charge Tanks were CAN Bus compliant. When did that happen? I thought they were still like our old v2s where you had to turn the bike on then plug the charger in.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Also Brian I didn't realize the new Charge Tanks were CAN Bus compliant. When did that happen? I thought they were still like our old v2s where you had to turn the bike on then plug the charger in.

Ah, I may have the wrong impression from what I've heard. I thought that they were only following the same protocol as the onboard charger but as another numbered charger. And that they didn't activate charge mode from a "cold boot".

[MVetter]

As I understand it they only have the one communication plug and it's going to the Calex. We repurpose that plug when the Calex is removed.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

In any case, no offboard charger can use that method unless they're willing to unplug and replug the onboard charger regularly.

And FYI for the OP, the onboard charger is not optimal for the battery because it conducts heat straight into the bottom plate over time.

[MVetter]

and sometimes it catches fire, right Brian?

[togo]

> ... I've seen Evtricity mentioned, but I can't find anything at all on their site (literally, their shop has no items http://evtricity.com.au/?page_id=178)

Yes, he made a batch, and then shut down.  You'll find all his postings in this forum if you go back.

> What I ultimately want is a box with two cables coming out of it; one goes into my bike, the other goes into a J1772 plug, and my bike charges at 6kw.  Ideally for less than $1000 USD.  Is this possible and how do I do it?

It could be done.  It's a risk.  I don't think anyone here wants the liability of telling you how to do it or encouraging you to do it.  A few months back you'll find someone encouraging a group buy, but I don't think we heard anything from him since, and I'd of course be wary of sending my money to someone like that.

[Shadow]

I'd be interested (in the 6kW). Have tried the DigiNow, Zero's QuiQ, the Hollywood Electrics Elcon 2500, and have talked to the Evtricity guy. There is nothing magical about charging a battery. Somehow though trying to sell charging electronics for EV moto is a losing business... it makes the most sense to document and DIY.

[Erasmo]

> ... I've seen Evtricity mentioned, but I can't find anything at all on their site (literally, their shop has no items http://evtricity.com.au/?page_id=178)

Yes, he made a batch, and then shut down.  You'll find all his postings in this forum if you go back.

> What I ultimately want is a box with two cables coming out of it; one goes into my bike, the other goes into a J1772 plug, and my bike charges at 6kw.  Ideally for less than $1000 USD.  Is this possible and how do I do it?

It could be done.  It's a risk.  I don't think anyone here wants the liability of telling you how to do it or encouraging you to do it.  A few months back you'll find someone encouraging a group buy, but I don't think we heard anything from him since, and I'd of course be wary of sending my money to someone like that.

The group buy went successfully.

[Булгаков]

I did not realize that evtricity had stopped selling chargers -- I've used the 6.6kW model extensively and it's been fantastic!

[MrDude_1]

...I am not willing to put my bike at risk however.

What I ultimately want is a box with two cables coming out of it; one goes into my bike, the other goes into a J1772 plug, and my bike charges at 6kw.  Ideally for less than $1000 USD.  Is this possible and how do I do it?

So these two conflict with each other a bit.
Either you can go the DIY route and get exactly what your asking for, with a bit of risk on your part...
or
You can go with a supported solution like you mentioned, with far less risk but much more money.


You seem to have a good grasp of the situation.
If you have a solid understanding of electrical theory, lithium battery charging and are willing to bet your bike on it... then yes, you can build a cheap supply to do exactly what you're asking... but with it comes risk. Done correctly the risk is extremely minor. Done poorly the risk is so great that only a fool would do it.
Where you are on that range is up to you. The biggest problem is that if you dont know enough, then you dont know what you dont know. Alot of people here dont want to share info online about DIY solutions, because most people should not be doing them.

That said, I am firmly in the camp of DIY solutions, but I also am in the area where I spend 4 times as much and spend way more time on it, just to get something that looks like I bought it.  If you do chose to build your own solution please do it right and spend the extra on the proper crimp tools, proper connectors, making the case, silicone the large parts down to the board, etc.

That said... if you understand current/voltage relationships in regards to lipo charging, IMO go for it. you dont sound like you plan to use it everyday, more of a once in awhile trip thing.. and in that case, just make sure you plug things in the right order, and it should all work.

edit:
and you should know the bike logs EVERYTHING so if you do screw it up, zero will know and your support at that point will be at the whim of whomever is on your case there. Theres conflicting history of whats covered and whats not when its your own charging add on.

[Scotchman]

Thanks for all the replies.  Seems like a lot of support for Diginow, which is understandable.  Part of what I'm trying to gain here is what the "value add" is other than a name standing behind it, and two guys I can call/email.  It sounds like the programming of the charger is a big part of it, maybe all of it.  I'd like to better understand what goes into this.

I understood that Elcon programs the charger before shipping (not positive on this), and so as long as I give them the right numbers, about what batteries I have, and 116.2 volts is the cutoff, I won't do any damage.  But maybe there is more to this and I am oversimplifying.

I get the feeling I am treading on sensitive ground here though, as there is a company present that is trying to sell a product, and apparently Zero watching to get out of future warranty claims.  I am really just trying to gather information to make an educated decision, so its unfortunate there are all these external factors.  I don't want to appear defensive, but Diginow doesn't offer the product I want (offboard), and I was misled by Zero's representative (my dealer), about the ability to get a Charge Tank after the fact, so I don't feel like Zero has the high ground here either (or my $2300 in a missed sales opportunity).  So unless there is another electric motorcycle forum this still seems like the best place to do research, and some amount of DIY seems to be the only solution available to me.  I do sincerely apologize if I am causing any inconvenience or stress on anyone though.

The most likely outcome, by a fair margin, is that I will do nothing and keep using the stock charger.  I might get a J1772 adapter to slowly use charge stations.  And if Diginow offers a single 6.6kw charger that I can somehow hook up externally, that might interest me.  But for the most part I am just gathering information.  As I said in the OP, I am very risk averse, so I will not be doing any "DIY" stuff that involves crimping and soldering.  Plug and play is the name of the game or I'm out.  It sounds like this is possible with the Elcon as long as I know what I'm doing.

[Neuer_User]

Well, let's say there are many people using successfully offboard solutions. That is: Professional chargers that are programmed to work within the limits for the zero battery.

However, these solutions do have their risks: Most are not waterproof. Get a rain shower while charging may fry the first the charger, and if you are very unlucky, also the battery (e.g. if the waters shorts the input and output of the charger. Same thing may happen, if you get a wrongly assembled/programmed charger.

So, there clearly are some advantages with the DigiNow solution: The two guys are real experts, the chargers are water and shock proof. Additionally the latest controller has a lot of features (e.g. charging to 80%). And, of course, the DigiNow chargers can be used offboard, too. The only point is that a 6.6kW version is something about 3k USD, so there is a price preimium you pay for the quality and expertise.

Cheers

Michael

P.S.: And don't believe that ANY company will cover your battery, if something unexpected happens. So, if you use the Diginow chargers and some strange coincidence would blow up your bike, don't couiunt on the guys to pay for a new bike. Whatever you do, the risk is always with you alone.

[Scotchman]

So the Elcon is waterproof, its the exact same charger Diginow resells, if I understand correctly.  So no difference there.  Point taken on the programming, that is what I'd like to understand better.  And of course them standing behind it certainly has value.

My understanding was you can not use the Diginows in an offboard setup, at least not while being supported (ie it is not an intended use case), but anyone correct me if I'm wrong.