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[ElectricZen]

I thought this might be a good place to report an oddity with the SOC gauge on my 2017 DSR.  I commute to work every day on my DSR which normally uses from 6% - 7% charge each way.  I noticed the other day that when I got to work after charging up to 100% at home, the gauge read 92% which was about normal.  However, when I left work that day the gauge read 98%.  I thought okay that's cool, I'm not going to complain about gaining 6% extra charge for free.  But on the way home I noticed that once I hit something like 94% charge, the gauge dropped to 87% in a very short period of time.  After that point, the gauge seemed to function properly without any sudden fluctuations.

I'm just wondering if anyone else has experienced this issue and if this is one of the glitches with the later versions of firmware.  I have not updated the firmware since taking delivery of the bike in March of this year.

2016 DSR. And what you described is basically "life" for me with my firmware.   Having been through a few versions of firmware and having put some milage with all of them with slow and fast charging, this is "normal".  It is important to note the following:

- battery voltage is the only true and reliable way to determine the state of charge of a battery(any battery ironically).  But battery voltage slides about a bit if you watch it.  If you are using, putting in or letting sit at rest the voltage will be different in all those scenarios.

-soc or state of charge is a porportional representation.  Ie. A fraction. So it is only applicable with a known total or max.  As we all, I'm sure, have experienced different ranges under different temperatures, various environmental conditions etc.  So "full" is really a subjective term, for example "when is a ballon full?  Before it pops? But if you fill it with cold air then move to a warm environment, it pops".  You get the idea.

-on the software end, it is observable using the zero voltage app to see the "total ah capacity" slide around a lot.  The zero motorcycles app no longer displays total kwh.  Voltage time amps equals watts...  It is very likely a much more complicated problem than it seems.  Since really what we all want to know is "how far can I go under the current conditions"

-lastly the top 10% of any battery is a bit subjective, I have noticed this in all the versions of frimware I have used.  10km and soc hasn't moved. Then 1km a % then back to normal sub 90%.

Now, with that all said!  It doesn't mean that this isn't fustrating for those afflicted.  I think we are all afflicted to a degree, the question is when is it going to show itself.  I have travelled a week with completely normal behaviour with the most afflicted and worse version of firmware I have seen.  Then suddenly without warning, seemingly completely random it would resume it's erratic behaviour.  The latest is better but still no where as reliable as the pre June 2017 version.  The soc will eventually find the correct representation, but sitting at a stop, gaining or loosing %'s still unnerves me.  Remember this seems to be strictly BMS firmware related.  Hopefully new bikes and newer battery packs are immune to these problems.

Morale of the story:. Watch your battery voltage!  Whether you are noticing soc reporting problems or not!  Just make sure it's not crazy!  100v is about 20% and 112v is about 80%.  Its pretty linear between those two.  0%-20% and 80%-100% follow a different curve.  116.4v is full and 96v is empty. 

Hope this helps someone!  #chargeriderepeat

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk

[dukecola]

The firmware on my Chevy Bolt is spot on, range remaining estimates are generally perfect. I trust it.  I don't with my Zero. Why can't Zero get a license from a major manufacturer with proven accurate software?

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Thanks to ElectricZen for a little perspective here, and everyone else for expressing your observations and valid frustrations.

Otherwise, I will admit that in editing zeromanual.com, I have carefully avoided trying to say anything about firmware revisions. And I’ve avoided this thread and this topic with care.

Honestly, I wish I could establish knowledge about this topic. But I have no realistic way to approach the problem without dealer software licensing, only owning a pre-2017 bike which locks me out of firmware checks, and only being able to piece together manufacturer perspective from various secondhand perspectives who themselves are probably cut out of any unambiguous information.

The idea that the firmware version range overlaps between newer models and older ones is... on its face, extremely inexplicable, to put it kindly.

To be clear, I’ve a ton of experience in the software industry and a minor amount of firmware experience and consulting, and this is really baffling. Putting a piece of software on an NHTSA regulated machine that can’t unambiguously explain itself or trace its provenance seems foolish.

I have even heard the perspective of an insider who realized they had no way of knowing what version identifiers they see that correspond to version numbers that we see. This isn’t right.

Remember regarding logs that Zero can shut off our ability to decode them by refusing to provide us with copies of decoded log files. For this reason, the header change and lack of newer confirmed decoded logs concerns me. We have to maintain this ability if Zero bikes are to be serviceable outside of the shops of their licensed dealers.

Zero has a tendency to lock information down when it feels that its livelihood is threatened in the unarticulated framing it uses regarding its livelihood. If it does this fully, we’ll be cut off and beholden to an opaque manufacturer and their invisible reasoning about what our bikes should do. I don’t want that and would abandon any manufacturer that did.

I’m tired of working so many contacts to get reasonable information from Zero, and often getting condescension when finally interviewing primary sources. Zero motorcycles are literally less valuable because they can’t work out how to communicate reasonably with the public.

And I’ll say this: the 2014 dash design was and is terrible, and I knew the moment I saw it at Seattle’s IMS show in 2014 and told the then-CEO. SoC as a two digit percentage leading the display is horrifyingly bad. The display needs to be able to cycle through every value that could shut the bike off. Indications are worthless if you can’t act on them reasonably.

The app as compensatory interface doesn’t even come close to being a reasonable fallback.

Let’s face it: Zero has no idea what to show its owners on its primary onboard display, or no money to redesign it and has decided to pressure its engineers to make SoC live up to entirely unreasonable expectations.

[togo]

> ...
> Remember regarding logs that Zero can shut off our ability to decode them by refusing to provide us with copies of decoded log files. For this reason, the header change and lack of newer confirmed decoded logs concerns me. We have to maintain this ability if Zero bikes are to be serviceable outside of the shops of their licensed dealers.
>
> Zero has a tendency to lock information down when it feels that its livelihood is threatened in the unarticulated framing it uses regarding its livelihood. If it does this fully, we’ll be cut off and beholden to an opaque manufacturer and their invisible reasoning about what our bikes should do.

That's what you get with an Energica or an Alta, right?  At least so far?

> I don’t want that and would abandon any manufacturer that did.
...

I would too.  I'm sticking with Zero because they are the most open manufacturer in spite of their faults.  If that were to change for the worse, I would consider the faults an insurmountable risk.  At least at present, I could theoretically ask my dealer to revert firmware or reprogram the sevcon if there's an issue.  If an Energica or an Alta were to fail me, and the company wouldn't support me, I think I'd really be stuck.  At least with Zero we have the benefit of some of the parts being relatively open, and we could still get some service on our old bikes if the company were to fail. 

[Richard230]

For whatever it is worth, I notice that after a relative flurry of firmware updates and revisions for my 2018 Zero S earlier this year, they seem to have tapered off and I haven't seen any updates being offered for the past few months.    Does that mean that the firmware is finally stable, or does that mean that Zero is holding back on additional firmware updates due to technical or legal concerns?   

One thing is for sure, concerns like that hasn't stopped Microsoft from updating my Windows 10 computer system every time I turn it on.   

[Scotchman]

The comparison is a little tenuous, as Zero should only be updating firmware to fix bugs or make improvements based on new information.  Microsoft is patching a much more complicated set of software for security vulnerabilities that are being discovered daily. 

In other words, I consider Zero doing a good job if there is one or two updates a year, and Microsoft doing a good job if there are weekly updates.  Either one going in the other direction would be worrisome for me.

[gt13013]

I have opened a thread here
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=8133.0

The idea is to build an index of all our firmware versions and link them with some problems (or no problems) of our bikes.

[Erasmo]

Interesting, since the last firmware update my bike won't fully charge anymore overnight, it's stuck at 87%(111V).

[Curt]

Interesting, since the last firmware update my bike won't fully charge anymore overnight, it's stuck at 87%(111V).

Zero evidently has a growing problem with their firmware change control/test/QA/release/documentation processes. They need to prioritize this and get a handle on it before customers stop accepting upgrades and before it costs a lot in recalls. It would be hard to recover from that level of mistrust. At this point, I've seen enough reports that I wouldn't want to upgrade my perfectly functioning bike, and might even be leery of taking it in for dealer service for fear that they might force upgrade or enforce it for warranty.

[dukecola]

Brought my 16' SR in today for a display problem and they are going to update software. Am I screwed? I got the recall update last summer and while bike works fine, the SOC accuracy has never been the same.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Brought my 16' SR in today for a display problem and they are going to update software. Am I screwed? I got the recall update last summer and while bike works fine, the SOC accuracy has never been the same.

I have heard that the latest revisions will be better than what you've experienced. This is just hearsay to me, though.

[Erasmo]

Interesting, since the last firmware update my bike won't fully charge anymore overnight, it's stuck at 87%(111V).

Zero evidently has a growing problem with their firmware change control/test/QA/release/documentation processes. They need to prioritize this and get a handle on it before customers stop accepting upgrades and before it costs a lot in recalls. It would be hard to recover from that level of mistrust. At this point, I've seen enough reports that I wouldn't want to upgrade my perfectly functioning bike, and might even be leery of taking it in for dealer service for fear that they might force upgrade or enforce it for warranty.

Hmm it might just be my charger dying, coincidentally around the time that the firmware was upgraded. Good thing that I have an external these days because it's out of warranty period.

[dukecola]

Brought my 16' SR in today for a display problem and they are going to update software. Am I screwed? I got the recall update last summer and while bike works fine, the SOC accuracy has never been the same.

I have heard that the latest revisions will be better than what you've experienced. This is just hearsay to me, though.

I hope so. Wasnt having problems with last update other than the dash percent was acting vastly different than before and sandbagging.

[qorw]

Hi all, here is my experience (also posted under new thread); the firmware update completely trashed my 2014 DS, its been at the dealer since nov 2017 as they are trying (slowly) to replace every board on the bike! They even shipped a new battery, still not working, waiting for new main board now! Anyway, I am sick and tired of it, have contact the after sales service manager josef morat and the new CEO sam paschel and told them to buy this rubbish motorcycle back from me! Zero is going to fail spectacularly, sorry to disappoint you all but one of the past directors told me that zero had to buy back all their 2012 bikes because they became impossible to maintain! They keep boasting that these bikes have lower maintenance than an ICE bike but that is a blatant lie! If an electronic board fails, one cant fix it, one has to buy a new one, and then its firmware is not compatible with the rest of the bike! Compare that to buying and replacing a failed spark plug!? It is a no-brainer! Farewell EVs, they are doomed.

[Richard230]

Hi all, here is my experience (also posted under new thread); the firmware update completely trashed my 2014 DS, its been at the dealer since nov 2017 as they are trying (slowly) to replace every board on the bike! They even shipped a new battery, still not working, waiting for new main board now! Anyway, I am sick and tired of it, have contact the after sales service manager josef morat and the new CEO sam paschel and told them to buy this rubbish motorcycle back from me! Zero is going to fail spectacularly, sorry to disappoint you all but one of the past directors told me that zero had to buy back all their 2012 bikes because they became impossible to maintain! They keep boasting that these bikes have lower maintenance than an ICE bike but that is a blatant lie! If an electronic board fails, one cant fix it, one has to buy a new one, and then its firmware is not compatible with the rest of the bike! Compare that to buying and replacing a failed spark plug!? It is a no-brainer! Farewell EVs, they are doomed.

It continues to be a mystery to me how the same vehicle can be so different over time.  My daughter's 2014 S (that I used to own) still runs great and only has a problem which started about a year ago, where it will no longer charge the battery pack to 100%.  Now it stops at 92% unless you leave the charger connected for about a week.  Otherwise no other problems.  I just don't understand how the same vehicle, with the same design and the same components can be so different after time. With so many parts being replaced by gorw's dealer, you would think that some improvement would have resulted. All I can imagine is that there was some sort of assembly problem in the wiring hidden away in the innards of the bike that is causing his problem.  It certainly would be interesting to find out what would cause such a terrible situation for both gorw, his dealer and Zero.  If I was Zero I would buy back the bike, give it to their engineers and let them play with it in their spare time until they found the problem(s) so that something like this could be avoided in the future.

I might add that when my 2014 S Power Tank was installed by my retail dealer when the bike was originally sold to me, they couldn't get the main board to recognize that the PT had been installed.  A Zero technician visited the shop and, after a couple of hours, discovered that the original PT was defective. Installing a new PT still didn't solve the problem, however he eventually discovered (a twofer) that a couple of pins in a large wiring connector had been bent when the bike was assembled at the factory.  Once he straightened out those connecting pins the PT came on line and has worked well ever since.  Sometimes a single damaged connector can cause all sorts of problems. One or more wiring connectors could certainly have been damaged by the shop during the process of removing and replacing parts over and over again and that might be causing all of these issues.   

If I was Zero I would (or should) be concerned about how their dealer is feeling about the trouble this bike is causing their repair shop - especially during the busy summer riding season. These sort of problems tend to be talked about at motorcycle dealer conventions and might result in other dealerships not wanting to take on the franchise in the future.