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[MVetter]

Brandon (ElectricCowboy) is actually at Zero HQ right now so I'll see if I can have him stop by Aaron's office to make sure he got your message 

[dennis-NL]

Really hope the tweaking will also involve following public chargers requests of tuning down kWh because loadbalancing becomes more and more build in for Europe.
We don't want coming back noticing power was completely shutdown because the bike was not tuningdown power as requested when alot of EV's were taking too much from the grid at the time 
 

[MrBlc]

Really hope the tweaking will also involve following public chargers requests of tuning down kWh because loadbalancing becomes more and more build in for Europe.
We don't want coming back noticing power was completely shutdown because the bike was not tuningdown power as requested when alot of EV's were taking too much from the grid at the time

Seconded!

[Electric Cowboy]

Updates :

We are all back and healthy, appologies for the delay, and thank you for your patience. In the meantime, all of the parts we were waiting for have come in. I will be potting some more boards after I write this update, and morgan is hard at work crimping.

US :

Michael Brehman,  Chuck Burgess, Dustin Dippen, and Brad Kline will ship out on christmas eve. Ho ho ho.

Big thank you to Michael, one of our original customers from the Florida days of building for upgrading. He is getting an extra 6.6kw v2.5 along with his v2(alpha) 3.3kw

EU :

Olavi Tepponen's 2014 unit will be shipping out on Christmas Eve. As will as Andre Couse.

Denmark :

"Bike In A Box" and 3.3kw SCv2.5 will know what the ship date will be on Christmas Eve.


Non update related :

@warranty question earlier, I actually was speaking to Zero CS right when you posted on here funny enough. It was explained that they shared the standard stance :

"No, the SCv2.5 does not void your warranty. While it is not an aprooved charger, it would not void the warranty if used appropriately."

@changes to EU networks :
pretty sure we have everything covered, if there is more in the future, the way we have it set up it would be a simple part swap.

[Erasmo]

Afaik the whole load-balancing power delivery uses the same PWM signalling as J1772.

[neographikal]

Okay, I contacted Aaron Cheatham from Zero regarding the warranty and it's a bit nuanced. This is not because I don't like the SC2.5, I basically told Aaron that it is superior to the Charge Tank in every way except for the warranty fuss and that Zero should integrate it in their own line-up. Aaron pointed out users best read the warranty info themselves and that the information below could be misread, so please read it yourself as well. Aaron was very fast and helpful in his responses.

That being said, his first answer:

The installation of any unapproved charger does not immediately violate our Zero Motorcycles Limited Motorcycle Warranty.  However, our warranty specifically does not cover any damage caused by the improper installation or its use.  Since we have not tested or approved this charger, Zero Motorcycles can’t guarantee that this won’t happen.  No product is 100% safe.  For the full details of our warranty, I would review your owner’s manual or our website here.....

Okay, that's a bit vague. Let's spell it out:

Thank you for your quick and exhaustive reply! If read between the lines, if the battery would degrade too fast within the 5 years or would completely fail and I would have used the supercharger, this would potentially cause a problem with the warranty. Most likely I won't get a replacement if needed. Am I correct?

Answer:

Thank you for your email.  Unfortunately, we have not tested nor approved the Diginow charger and so I can’t really answer your questions.  They are likely best addressed to them.

Zero won't confirm that there is no issue if you come in with a degraded/broken battery and points to Diginow. So most likely you'll have to go to Diginow if you come in with a battery that has degraded when the SC2 would have been used. From the Diginow website:

If a properly-installed digiNow charger causes direct damage to your bike or battery during our warranty period, we will cover the repair cost to your bike.

In the case of a battery that has degraded faster than expected, is this direct damage because of the SC? That's debatable. Not to be a dick, but this is a risk: Diginow is a 2 man operation and what happens if Zero says well you used a SC and Diginow says it isn't the chargers fault, it was <insert reason: battery inherently flawed, you used the motorcycle in extreme circumstances, etc>.

[nevetsyad]

I don’t think the SC will charge the bike if it’s too hot or cold. I don’t see how it could possibly degrade the battery. Higher charge speed? The cells are rated up to 1C, so if you use them as recommended, you shouldn’t damage the battery or violate the warranty. “Shouldn’t”

[neographikal]

This is the technical argument, I agree, it is highly unlikely that the SC will damage the bike. I have every confidence in these two highly capable people and from a technical and practical standpoint the SC is way way better than the Charge Tank.

But legally speaking this is quite different and it can lead to the situation where Zero won't cover your claim on the battery because the bike has been modified and Diginow disagrees with the assessment, because it has done everything they could and it couldn't possibly be caused by the SC/you drove a lot of miles/etc. Ór Diginow can't cover the guarantee because the company seized to exist. Then there is the fact that as a European customer legally speaking the UK distributor is responsible, not Diginow itself, which can also cause ambiguity. My legal insurance won't touch such a case with an barge pole.

As long as Zero doesn't give a straight answer along the lines of we will cover the warranty despite the use of the properly installed SC, the use of the SC poses a risk to the warranty of the bike, especially in the EU where don't have something along the lines of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. The warranty on the SC itself isn't my concern (two grand is a lot but not the end of the world), the warranty on the bike - for me - however is. I'm sorry to sound like a prick, but I've been in such a situation before and it's no fun at all.

[NEW2elec]

Hopefully Brandon can work out a deal to replace the current onboard charger with Diginow ones straight from the factory.  This could put installing them as part of the dealer tech training  so if a buyer wanted to upscale past the 3.3 kW (new standard onboard size in this idea) the dealers could add them for those who don't feel comfortable doing it themselves.

Seems like a no brainer since the current onboard charger has had such a bad track record.  Also using them as replacements for broken ones on past bikes that can handle them.
This type of scaled up production could bring the cost down even further (plus more for Diginow as well)

Zero if your still watching us come on and get on board its a win win win for you for Diginow and for us which is rare.

[nevetsyad]

I don’t know if a mid-sized company would want to or need to partner with a small company. They’d profit more cutting them out and just making their own, using their established supply chain. See - original charge tank. Then see the next year’s charge tank. There’s a clear demand and probably a good chunk of profit at the prices the manufacture is charging.

[NEW2elec]

Agreed Zero makes a nice cut off the charge tank option.  But there are really only a few things on the bike that Zero makes.
The chargers, the battery cells, the BMS, the controller, the DC-DC converter, the frame, and all the "motorcycle parts" all come from other companies.
They would just be trading a known problem item, the current onboard chargers, with a closer better QC company that has post purchase scalability. 
The pan option gives them the ability to sell a power tank which would double their bike "upgrade options".

[Electric Cowboy]

Oh my gosh, guys...

First, thank you to Zero customer service for doing their best to make this as clear to you as they legally can.

Let me clarify this legalese for you as a non representative of Zero, and a non Zero employee. LEGALESE...

If an aftermarket pert damages your bike, Zero is not responcible, if its not the aftermarket companies fault, Zero will honor your warranty. <- Thats 100% fair.

Let me break it down for you, Zero was freaking out for a bit about some software issues they were having, I went to bat for the customers and made the waters rough by calling Zero out. At the same time I did my absolute best to help them fix their issue, I even added complementary battery saftey into the SCv2.5 to show Zero how serious we were about helping them.

Since then We have helped 1 user who did not have an SC get their battery replaced, and a user who DID have an SC get theirs upgraded. On toip of this, one of our customers had a battery get damaged during international shipping of their bike, and Zero replaced their battery for them under warranty too.

Zero is not out there to screw you nor us, and we are not out there to screw Zero or you. This is trickle down in its finest, Zero has a vested interest in not pooping on us now that it is clear we want to help them do great things, and that they see how our customers batteries are better taken care of than others. Perhaps someday we could get the OEM contract, but for now supplying the chargers as aftermarket allows customers who know the fun way of riding their bike to get the units, keeping the stock bike price lower for people who don't yet know they want a super charger.

Anyone who expects Zero to say "If a 3rd party product damages your bike we will fix it" is crazy. What they are saying is more than fair, and they are already out on a limb in legalese. On top of this, they have demonstrated good faith towards us and our customers. It also helps that we are probably in the top 3 people for knowing how these bikes operate in and out outside of Zero.

---------------

Updates :

Mogan finally came down with the very bad sickness the rest of us had over the holiday and will be back tomorrow to ship packages. There was an issue with one of the labels and so rather than ship an SC to the wrong location, I am opting to let him come fix everything. Shipping blows, we have someone coming to get a local install this weekend because their charger got stolen from their porch  wtf. We filed a claim, this has happened once before, that time it turned out it was just lost in the mail and turned back up at our facility a YEAR later... Hope this one comes back too

Olavi  has actually opted to wait for the indiegogo units and got an upgade for his setup.

If anyone eklse wants to support, there are 12 hours left... High hopes.

Best,

Brandon

[dennis-NL]

Pfew.
Thx for all the questions and answer.
I feel fine with my just installed Diginow.
But it's a lot of money, so hopefully every1 is now oke with the current relationship between Zero-Diginow-Owners !
 

[neographikal]

Anyone who expects Zero to say "If a 3rd party product damages your bike we will fix it" is crazy. What they are saying is more than fair, and they are already out on a limb in legalese. On top of this, they have demonstrated good faith towards us and our customers. It also helps that we are probably in the top 3 people for knowing how these bikes operate in and out outside of Zero.

Okay, I don't think I quite deserve that, I was respectful to both you and the Zero customer support. That it has gone well until now is great, it speaks for both Diginow and Zero that it has. I applaud the innovative solution that you guys made, it's better than the solution Zero has in every technical and practical regard. Also Aaron was very fast and friendly in his answers and I'm not saying that one of these companies is actively trying to screw anyone.

What I'm saying is that there could be cases where it is not clear where the problem has originated and that could lead to problems claiming warranty. Say the battery would have degraded faster than expected after 4 years and would normally be replaced under warranty by Zero, Zero could make the argument (and most automotive companies in The Netherlands would) that fast charging by a third party supplied charger exacerbated the problem while Diginow doesn't believe that it did. Under the current terms on the Diginow website this can cause a discussion and where does that leave me as a customer?

A lot of professional tuners for cars will take on the manufacturer warranty on the engine after tuning the engine because the dealer won't service it anymore after any modification has been done.  It would help if the Diginow policy would be the same; if Zero doesn't cover warranty claims because the SC was installed Diginow will take on the warrantly claim without question (US and internationally).

That way I would have certainty as a customer: problems? Call Zero, if Zero denies because SC2 could be the cause: Diginow will cover me no questions asked.

Pfew.
Thx for all the questions and answer.
I feel fine with my just installed Diginow.
But it's a lot of money, so hopefully every1 is now oke with the current relationship between Zero-Diginow-Owners !
 

Nice! I would really like to know how you like it. Do you happen to leave somewhere near Arnhem? Would love to see it!

[dennis-NL]

Oops, Breda 😎
But all details are here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/permalink/1954290271306838