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[vinceherman]

Since it was asked again, I will answer again; Cruise Control

AKA Custom mode.

Not even close.

[yhafting]

Ha ha.  I thought about posting a thread for this the day after the 2018s were announced, but I showed a little restraint 

 
My primary list is short:

1.  Ability to program three rider modes instead of just custom.
2.  Progressive regen.

Another thing I'd like to see in the future:

3.  Poor man's traction control - a defeatable option that limits spinup of the back wheel

Then there's the obvious:

4.  More range
5.  Lower cost

And the hopeful:

6.  Firmware updates that don't break the bikes
7.  A change log for firmware updates
8.  Better dealer network and responsiveness to issues
9.  Less performance surprises, e.g. current limiting in cold weather

I fully support this. Only i would put #3 first.

The one time i forgot that i was riding on wet surface i lost traction trying to pass a slow car. I know it was stupid move, but not having less than 10 lines of code that could have saved my shoulder from 6 months of recovery seems equally stupid.  (My shoulder is mostly fine, but i still cannot reach behind my back properly which makes stuff like wearing a jacket or a backpack cumbersome).

Now of course traction control should be an option just as setting custom regen. What I don't understand is why anyone would argue against such a safety feature as long as it can be switched off.

[BamBam]

My 2017 DSR already has traction control.........it's called Eco mode.  Seriously, the power reduction in Eco mode on my DSR is so significant that I doubt I could spin the rear wheel on anything but maybe a solid sheet of ice.  The Eco mode on my FXS wasn't as pronounced.

Is this everyone's experience that owns a DSR?  How about those who have other models?

[domingo3]

My 2017 DSR already has traction control.........it's called Eco mode.  Seriously, the power reduction in Eco mode on my DSR is so significant that I doubt I could spin the rear wheel on anything but maybe a solid sheet of ice.  The Eco mode on my FXS wasn't as pronounced.

Is this everyone's experience that owns a DSR?  How about those who have other models?

I agree that eco mode can work to prevent wheel spin, but I don't want to ride around on a neutered bike.  That takes away power and top speed when I want/need it and would defeat the purpose of owning an R bike.  Putting it in eco is mostly acceptable if it's raining or the road conditions are otherwise poor for an extended period of time, but it's not ideal to flip between eco and custom frequently during the ride.  I fully accept that most of the issues can be prevented with experience and good throttle control.  It's probably a little more than 10 lines of code, but I still believe that it should be pretty easy and inexpensive to implement.

[JaimeC]

What do I want for 2019?  I think Zero should NOT concentrate on new models or features.  I think they should put ALL of their resources into establishing a "Technical Excellence" center in every State or Country where their bikes are sold.  I think every dealership that sells Zeros should be able to send at least one technician to these centers where they can be fully trained on every aspect of these bikes.

Zero should also publish an actual SERVICE MANUAL that the technicians can reference when there are issues.  Making the dealerships call the factory everytime there is any kind of an issue is BULLSHIT.  Having the dealerships ship bikes out to the factory for inspection is also BULLSHIT.  Could you imagine if you had to do that with your Chevy or Toyota???

Later:  Having a "Technical Excellence Center" in every State is not really feasible, but they SHOULD have multiple centers around the country nevertheless. 

[MostlyBonkers]

What do I want for 2019?  I think Zero should NOT concentrate on new models or features.  I think they should put ALL of their resources into establishing a "Technical Excellence" center in every State or Country where their bikes are sold.  I think every dealership that sells Zeros should be able to send at least one technician to these centers where they can be fully trained on every aspect of these bikes.

Zero should also publish an actual SERVICE MANUAL that the technicians can reference when there are issues.  Making the dealerships call the factory everytime there is any kind of an issue is BULLSHIT.  Having the dealerships ship bikes out to the factory for inspection is also BULLSHIT.  Could you imagine if you had to do that with your Chevy or Toyota???

+1, with the exception of adding traction control. It's only a matter of time before someone sues Zero for not providing it as standard, at least in the R models.

In the absence of any real competition, I'm now of a mind that they should concentrate on reducing the price. They are selling a very standard mid range motorcycle at a premium price. A Zero S needs to be £6k on the road here in the UK.  Then  they'll start selling to commuters, which is the market the product is designed for.  At the moment, I think the price is roughly double that. Maybe a little less after the subsidy. The cheap running costs need to be an extra incentive to make the switch to electric.

I keep thinking about what to do next. There's no point in staying with Zero unless I get an R model. I might as well stick with my 2014DS even though it's only got another 9 months warranty.  However, a new SR is around £15k.  I could buy a Yamaha MT10 SP for that money and still have enough left over to run it for a year.  Or go for the standard MT10 and be able to run it for 3 years; petrol, servicing and road tax included...

[yhafting]

Here is a suggestion for pseudo code for a poor mans traction control
(yes it will probably be more than 10 lines in the end, but the idea can be conveyed as this)

Assuming that the current variables are available current_velocity, requested_torque  (or current- it will be the same)
Also available from this routine will be  previous_velocity, erroneous_torque and torque (torque will be the output)

Interrupt routine - assuming this runs 100 times per second as an example :

1   if( current_velocity - previous_velocity > max_allowable_velocity_change) {              // if we have too much change in speed, set torque limiter
2     torque_limit = 100;
3     erroneous_torque = torque; 
4     }else previous_velocity = current_velocity;                                                            // otherwise, update the velocity memory
5   if ( requested_torque < erroneous_torque*(100-torque_limit)/100 ) torque_limit = 0;   // reset limit if we have moved throttle into safe area
6   torque = (requested_torque*(100-torque_limit))/100);                                               // set torque according to limits
7   if (torque_limit > 0) torque_limit--;                                                                           //  count down torque limit within 1 second or so...
8   previous_requested_torque = requested torque;                                                         // set torque memory

Now one can debate on using a line or two to speed up the routine by doing less math and operating with min( requested_torque, erroneous_torque*(100-torque_limit)/100) but generally i believe this code should give you a second to reduce throttle when the wheel starts spinning, when properly reduced, you should be able to start using throttle again, as the torque limit is reset. The timing, countdown etc can of course all be tuned to fit real world reaction times.

[togo]

>  ... Having the dealerships ship bikes out to the factory for inspection is also BULLSHIT.  ...

I was told Energica has been having to do that for their German customers...

[Gandalf]

Lower prices all around. To be more specific I'd suggest $3,000 - $4,000 lower price on each model. Additional optional improvements I might suggest: more color options, better brakes, traction control, and full color screen. I can 99% guarantee your sales would go up. Supply and demand. The demand is luke warm at the moment because the technology is still relatively new and the prices are too high for the average motorcycle buyer. I would expect to pay a little more than a gas bike but not as much as a brand new car or nice used car.

I've been lurking these forums, YT videos, and the Zero website for years. Every year I check back in to see what changes they've made. The prices are the main thing holding me back.

As MostlyBonkers stated above "I'm now of a mind that they should concentrate on reducing the price. They are selling a very standard mid range motorcycle at a premium price." I completely agree. For the price you're paying for these motorcycles you should never have to wait a month for the company to respond to your issues, as JaimeC has experienced.

The longevity of these bikes is also a concern to me. The warranty doesn't seem to cover everything. I've also read plenty of issues people have had within the first 2 years of owning one. I'd be curious to know factual stats as to how many people have a problem with their bike within the first 2 years (actual problems, not something like needing new tires because they're worn out). I really want to own a Zero but I feel like they need a few more years to work out some kinks and improve everything.

There's no way I'm going to drop $11-$16k on a brand new bike to have something like this happen on day 1...if this had happened to me, I would've returned it the same day for a full refund and never looked at the company again. I'm sure it's a rare occurrence but that's just crazy. Makes you wonder how it passed quality control on the way out of the factory...

[Burton]

RE: the video.

I have seen that exact thing happen after you interface with the bike via DVT ... typically you have to power cycle the bike and then it clears up.

Would be interesting to see that guys logs.

[domingo3]

Lower prices all around. To be more specific I'd suggest $3,000 - $4,000 lower price on each model. Additional optional improvements I might suggest: more color options, better brakes, traction control, and full color screen. I can 99% guarantee your sales would go up. Supply and demand.

Zero would take a loss on every bike they sold and go out of business.  If Zero sold their bikes for $5000 each, sales would increase even more.  I am by no means a Zero Apologist ® but I think we need to be realistic at this point.  Buying a Zero was a splurge for me and I'd love to see the price come down, but I believe they are selling at a fair price.

[JaimeC]

For DECADES all the traction control anyone needed was in their right wrist.  If you can't control yourself, maybe you should look at another form of transportation (unless, of course, you are competing on a race track; then traction control might be the difference between finishing the race, or high-siding).  On the street?  Not so much. 

I'd much rather see Zero spend their money on building up their support and service system.  My bike has been in the shop for over a month now.  It took over a month for Zero Tech Support to FINALLY remote into the shop's system and diagnose the issue.  That was a week ago.  We STILL don't have a tracking number or shipping estimate for the replacement motor.

[Doug S]

I'd much rather see Zero spend their money on...

That's really the key phrase, isn't it? I'd agree investing in their support network should be a very high priority, but even before that, I'd say they need to FIX THEIR FIRMWARE! Their neck of the woods is very rich in people who would eat this sort of thing up, they need to get over the high cost of a good firmware engineer, hire one and do the job right.

THEN I'd prioritize improving their support network. A lot of people have had problems in this area, but every single one of their riders would benefit from improved firmware.

[Gandalf]

Lower prices all around. To be more specific I'd suggest $3,000 - $4,000 lower price on each model. Additional optional improvements I might suggest: more color options, better brakes, traction control, and full color screen. I can 99% guarantee your sales would go up. Supply and demand.

Zero would take a loss on every bike they sold and go out of business.  If Zero sold their bikes for $5000 each, sales would increase even more.  I am by no means a Zero Apologist ® but I think we need to be realistic at this point.  Buying a Zero was a splurge for me and I'd love to see the price come down, but I believe they are selling at a fair price.

They wouldn't go out of business. How much do you think their profit margin is? In other words, how much do you think it costs in actual parts and labor to build 1 motorcycle versus what they sell it for and make a profit on? Examples: If it costs them 9k to make one and they sell it for 14k, they're making 5k per motorcycle. If it costs them 5k to make a bike and they're selling it for 14k, they're making 9k per bike. I'm guessing it costs 4-7k to build 1 motorcycle depending on specs. They could easily drop the price and still make a profit, it just wouldn't be as big of a profit as before.

Perhaps an alternative could be to run limited time discounts every year. Example: anyone who orders a Zero between February 1st and April 1st gets $3k off the normal price. After April 1st, price goes back up to normal. Give the customer some incentive to think "It's that time of the year for the discount, I better jump on it while it's here."

For me personally, 10k is the MAX I've always had set in stone for a motorcycle. If I really dig deep, want to burn a hole in my pocket, and the circumstances are perfect, I might go up to about 12k max, that's it. Unfortunate for me since I'm eyeing up either the DS ZF13.0 with quick charger & without power tank OR the S ZF13.0 with the same options. They're both showing as around $14,595 per the Zero site. Add on taxes and fees and it's more like $16,500-$17,000 which is about 4-6k over my budget. For wealthy people price is never an issue. For the rest of us average folks, we have mortgages and bills to pay. They won't get too many middle class buyers with the current prices. That explains why I've never once seen a Zero motorcycle in my area.

[wagz50]

A Zero costs far more than $5k per bike to design, manufacture, test, warehouse, distribute, support and market.
Some of those costs scale better than others. For example, the cost to market gets less expensive per bike, the more bikes you sell. However, Zero is a mid sized company that has outside investors who need to get paid so there's a limit to how deep they can go into their own pockets as they try to scale up. (they're not public like Tesla and can't spend against their share price on the stock market)
And they already offer seasonal discounts and promotions. I got my 2017 DSR at a $3000 discount and they threw in $1500 worth of accessories.
Yes, list price on the bikes is expensive, and dealers don't have a lot of room to discount new bikes, but you're getting a relatively rare piece of seriously high technology with a much lower cost of ownership than a comparable ICE bike.
I'm on my second Zero and complaining about the price hasn't entered my mind for one second.