Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Apriliarsv]

It's not about you and not wanting to sellect from 3,4,5 power modes. Electric
motorcycles are bringing newbs in to the game. They are not scared off by the
traditional motorcycle - clutch and shifting. Twist and go appeals to them.
Anything we can do to expand the market gets more bikes out there. More bikes
to split R&D on. That brings the price down. Lower prices and larger market will
bring more dealers in. I would love to have a dealer open closer to me.

[togo]

>Traction control is nice but I think several power modes would work just
>as good and be way cheaper to implement.

I disagree. If I'm in a high torque mode, I'd like the moto to detect slippage and reduce torque.  Setting a different mode doesn't fix that.

Detecting overspin would have another advantage too- fewer broken belts. 

> Aprilia has a Rain mode on entry level bikes like the Shiver.

Eneregica has a rain mode too. Which I enabled after I wheelied by mistake.


To the experienced riders that say all the traction control you need is in your
wrist. Just remember that on a gas bike you also are using your 5-6 speed
transmission as a form of traction control. Think short shifting.On the Zero
you do not have this option.
[/quote]

[Doug S]

I remember 35-40 years ago (yes I'm old) the cars started coming out with this thing called "cruise control". Mostly we laughed at it and made up bad "true stories" about someone engaging it and going to the back of his RV to make himself a drink. That thing doesn't do anything you can't do with your right ankle!

But cruise control is pretty useful, and it's hard for me to imagine buying a car without it nowadays. I love the "adaptive" one on my 2016 RAV4 -- when the idiot in front of me slows down, so does my car. Personally, I'd love to see Zero add a cruise control and a backup mode, both of which should be possible to add fairly easily, cheaply and safely.

I keep my bike in "sport" mode all the time. It doesn't make sense to me to limit the bike's performance -- I'll control that myself, thank you. If I had ABS like the new bikes, I'd probably leave it on as long as it didn't "false positive" a lot and effect normal riding. Same if I had traction control. I do consider myself an advanced enough rider that I can keep from spinning the rear tire, but many aren't, and as long as there's an off switch, isn't it better to have the option?

I'm sure all of our opinions are subject to change, and we'll see how we feel about it all in ten years. For now, I say it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

[caza]

#1 thing that needs to improve is customer service.

The fact that I can call at any time of the day and invariably get "no one can answer leave a message" and my messages are never returned makes it really hard to recommend a Zero to anyone. It's atrocious. I'm pretty sure if I said I wanted to buy a bike through the phone menu they'd answer though!

Aside from that it's pretty much all the basic stuff. Traction control would be nice. A reverse button would be nice. I'd love to be able to back it into my garage since the driveway is on an incline. Cruise control is great, especially since this is billed as a commuter bike.

I don't necessarily need more than 3 modes but being able to modify sport and eco to my liking would be nice (I hate the roll-off-to-regen on this bike)

In general though I think 6 years is quite long enough for one generation, and it's time for a redesign of the entire line. Would like to see the offerings grow to include other market sections like minibikes and cruisers.

I really would like to see a better more thoughtful charge/power tank solution. Should be an option to do both. Charge tank up top, without the need for the stock charger, and power tank in the belly pan. Or even just an upgraded belly pan charger so you can have fast charging and still have the storage up top/ability for power tank.

The stock charger in general is disappointing since we've seen how powerful and small the diginow chargers are.

I really, really want better regen with smooth variable control. Replace the flash to pass trigger with a pot-box trigger that controls regen on demand, like how the new volt and bolt have a regen lever on the steering wheel. If they added that it would be really hard for me not to upgrade.

Zeros are great bikes, and they've come a long way in 12 years. But there are still endless ways they can improve and the last few years have felt very stagnant. I'm hoping this new logo is going to come with bolder new changes for 2019.

[MostlyBonkers]

I'd like to see active thermal management for the battery pack. Or in other words, the ability to cool the cells during use and warm them when cold.

That would lead to much faster charging and less power reduction due to thermal management.

It would be good to have a bike that can consistently provide the power and torque figures Zero claim. In practice, I'm only seeing them for brief moments at full throttle before amps, kW and torque figures are cut back dramatically.  That's even without the motor or the battery overheating.  I don't think a Zero would cope with a track day very well at all and it soon complains when ridden hard on the road.

Other essentials:

More range
Aerodynamic fairing for better range and weather protection
Torque control
DC rapid charging
Better customer support (already happening in the UK thanks to Dale)

[Doug S]

caza, I agree with just about everything you said, but especially that it's time for a new model. I doubt Zero has engineering resources to modify all their offering at once, but in my mind, this would be a good time to drop a new model with the following traits:

1) A full-sized bike, as opposed to the smaller bikes Zero has been focusing on. The size itself isn't necessarily attractive to me, but see the next item.
2) A bigger battery, at least as an option. I think a larger frame could accommodate twice today's battery if done properly. Goodbye chatter about "range anxiety".
3) DC charging. I think it's safe to get onboard with CCS at this point. Or take up Tesla on their offer to share their supercharger technology. Better yet, both.
4) An aerodynamic full fairing package, at least as an option. Matching baggage would be nice, too.

To me, all this adds up to either a basic cruiser or maybe a bagger type of bike. Maybe the cruiser could be turned into a bagger with an optional aero package. I'd keep it clean and simple though, no hog wannabes, no gigantic interstate monsters.

Or maybe a nice-looking retro-styled bike, similar to the new bikes Norton and Triumph are bringing out. The industry seems to be offering more "standard" bikes than they did for years. Maybe something reminiscent of the old CB750 Four would interest people...but in general, something bigger, more comfortable, with better range, built for the open road.

[Richard230]

Speaking of HOG wannabes: You will note that H-D's vision of electric motorcycles does not include a cruiser model. That should tell you something about what they think the size of that market is. And they ought to know.  Personally, I don't understand why someone hasn't come out with a traditional-styled cruiser platform, but I guess EV manufacturers know more than I do about marketing such a vehicle. 

[hiposw]

I like the size of the Zeros. I am a fairly big guy 6'3" and after riding bigger bikes, (last one was a Triumph Tiger 1050) I find the lighter quicker handing 2015 Zero DS that I ride more fun than the bigger bikes. Of course I mostly use it around town.  I would be happy with basically the same bike with more range, faster charging and a better seat. I am looking at getting a DSR when the 2020 models come out. I would like to set it up with side boxes and a good windshield for longer trips and get a Corbin seat and hit the road.

[caza]

@mostlybonkers

I'm a little more conflicted about thermal management. I think in general it is a great idea with a ton of benefits but also, in my day to day riding, even on 100 degree days, my battery doesn't overheat.

The lack of thermal management is a very intentional tradeoff decision for zero. No thermal management means they can have a denser battery. Only so much space in the bike, so denser means more range, and no thermal management means less cost.

Not convinced that thermal management would make a hugely dramatic difference on charge times since we can already get quite a bit of range in under an hour with the charge tank. Hard to find other EVs that give you this much range/minute without DC fast charging.

Where it would make the biggest difference is for the people using the Zero for road trips, switching between fast charging and fast riding all day. This is not normal EV use right now, and even with the bike tuned to the best possible configuration, able to do this without overheating, it's still not going to be a great choice for a road trip as long as the charging availability is what it is now. Zero has chosen to not prioritize these outliers and instead prioritize the most likely people to buy EVs right now. The people who are going to use it around town and for their commute and charge it overnight.

Thermal management is a great feature but I can't really fault zero for making the decision they made. The first question anyone asks about any EV is "what's the range", so Zero's going to make the choice that gives them the biggest number there. Nobody asks about thermal management.

@Doug S

I'm kind of at a "chicken or egg" impasse with DC fast charging. I'm in the SF Bay area, and even here these chargers are incredibly scarce. So I'd have trouble forking over more money for a feature I'll almost never use. But if we don't buy vehicles with DC fast charging ports, there's little incentive to build more stations.

Definitely on board with fairing and baggage options though.

A retro looking bike would be great.

[MostlyBonkers]

@Caza

I agree with you about battery density etc.  I think that after owning my Zero and having it as my only bike for over two and a half years, my mind is turning to what I miss from an ICE bike.  Like Doug, I'm keen for electric bikes to make the leap from commuters to tourers. 

There are very few bikers out there willing to hang around for a couple of hours while their bike charges. We do need active thermal management and rapid DC charging to achieve 20-30 minute charge times. This will inevitably mean a much bigger bike and I think it would appeal to those that ride big adventure bikes.  They all enjoy comfortable bikes with long range and effortless power. I'd love to see what Zero could come up with for that market.

Sadly, I don't think the commuter market is embracing Zero, possibly because it is very price sensitive.  The touring market has a lot of fifty somethings in it who have money to spend on expensive bikes.  I'd love to see an electric GS!

[Doug S]

I've been thinking about a compact, lightweight system for cooling pouch cells for quite some time, and I think it could be done fairly cheaply and easily.

Take a thin piece of aluminum sheet, maybe 1/16" thick. Cut pieces as long as the battery cells, but a bit wider. Put a piece in between each of the cells. Gather the excess width on one side of the stack of cells, forming a small "tunnel" on one side of the assembly. A small blower could blow air through the tunnel to cool the ends of the plates, drawing heat out of the cells. Thermostatic control would provide airflow only when needed, preventing over-cooling and increasing the life of the blower.

You wouldn't have any concerns with water pumps, radiators, leakage or coolant maintenance. It wouldn't give you a ton of cooling, but you don't need all that much. We're making due with none right now, with the cells all jammed together and really no opportunity for cooling at all for the cells in the middle. The amount of heat transferred could be increased by etching the ends of the plates and/or creating turbulence in the tunnel. It would increase the size of the assembly a bit, but not by a huge amount. I think a small penalty in volume would be well worth keeping the cells from overheating.

[caza]

@mostlybonkers

I do really like the idea of a huge, decked out electric adventure bike with a giant battery and every feature we crave

I really wonder what pricing would be like. A 1200GS adventure is 25k. though, so Zero could probably go as high as 30 and still have it seem fairly reasonable to someone in the market for that kind of bike.

@Doug S

I like your idea. We don't need top of the line bombproof cooling, just something slim and simple.

[Richard230]

@mostlybonkers

I do really like the idea of a huge, decked out electric adventure bike with a giant battery and every feature we crave

I really wonder what pricing would be like. A 1200GS adventure is 25k. though, so Zero could probably go as high as 30 and still have it seem fairly reasonable to someone in the market for that kind of bike.

@Doug S

I like your idea. We don't need top of the line bombproof cooling, just something slim and simple.

The problem with pricing any motorcycle, much less one with completely new technology, at a price of $25-$30K USD is that pricing at that level is not going to grow the market. You will always be able to sell some vehicles at that price, but not many. The BMW GS is being mostly bought by the same demographic that purchases the H-D and Indian brand at that price range. Older "baby boomers" who are retired and have a lot of spare cash to spend since their homes are paid off and their kids are on their own (like me).

But eventually customers like me will die off. Already, I am seeing my motorcycle riding friends and acquaintances giving up on riding, taking their motorcycles and stuffing them into the back of their garage to remind them of their younger days, retiring to the easy chair and spending their days watching fake news on the internet and pharmaceutical commercials on the TV.

What Zero needs to do (and I think they know it) is to lower the price of their electric motorcycles as much as possible to attract new customers into the "fold". They can always introduce a high-end model with all of the bells and whistles if they want, but their "meat and potatoes" need to be the lower price bikes that will attract new younger customers who would like to ride electric but just can't afford to spring for the big bucks for a loaded model. They need to concentrate on relatively inexpensive commuter models to attract young working customers who will see that electric motorcycles are not only practical for getting to their jobs, but can also offer an inexpensive mode of transportation that is quiet, environmentally clean and also fun to ride - and doesn't require a lot of expensive maintenance to keep running.

[MostlyBonkers]

When Streetbike had five 2014DSP bikes to sell at 6,500 GBP they all went quickly. They do need to be at the same price point as a comparable petrol bike for them to sell.  I don't think the battery costs have come down enough for that to happen yet.

Unfortunately I don't think most prospective buyers are willing to pay more for an electric bike on the understanding that running costs will be lower and total cost of ownership will be less.  They just want a bike that's going to be cheap to purchase. If they want cheap running costs they'll buy a 250cc and the bike will only cost about 4,500 GBP.  Zero have got a long way to go to compete with that.

The time will come, but I think we'll be waiting a good few years.  Could Zero release a budget model right now? I'd like to see that.

[caza]

I mean for me the key is adding one thing doesn't mean abandoning another. An expanded range means an expanded customer base.

Yeah the $30k adventure bike isn't going to push out record numbers, but it will get more people into the zero brand.

The budget bike or minibike won't be for everyone either, but it will allow people to try a good electric bike without having to invest so much.

I'm just saying they should cast a bigger net.