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Author Topic: Zero has released 2018 models.  (Read 4777 times)

idle

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2017, 07:24:15 AM »

When will the put the hi-temp motors in the FX/S ? In AZ hottest parts of the year my DSR is tested and true, but I want an FXS and still see posts around about thermal issues.
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Rugby4life

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2017, 07:59:41 AM »

The most exciting thing about  the 2018 bikes is how much the left over 2017 bikes are discounted. I just pulled the trigger on a demo '17 SR. All told, it was about 4k off. The best part is that I put 1/2 of the demo miles on it myself.  ;D
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Lenny

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2017, 07:04:17 PM »

I'm not so sure about that, the last charge tank was also delivered with an J1772 inlet in Europe while everything is Mennekes over here.
Mennekes type charging can supply yup to 43kW of power so it should be able to sip 6kW on one phase but the most common charging stations here are 3-phase 11kW which will halve the charging power if they use only one phase.

It does have a J1772 once again, so just single phase, no onboard considered (driving it around but not using it) and exactly like you described it, on most AC stations which just offer 11 kW (so 16A each phase) it will just have an output of 3 kW. That is really stupid and sad. Although our AC charging infrastructure here in Europe is generally stronger and offers way more power (11 kW standard, 22 or even 43 kw common) than in the US, they don't make any use of it.
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wavelet

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2017, 08:55:44 AM »

I'm not so sure about that, the last charge tank was also delivered with an J1772 inlet in Europe while everything is Mennekes over here.
Mennekes type charging can supply yup to 43kW of power so it should be able to sip 6kW on one phase but the most common charging stations here are 3-phase 11kW which will halve the charging power if they use only one phase.

It does have a J1772 once again, so just single phase, no onboard considered (driving it around but not using it) and exactly like you described it, on most AC stations which just offer 11 kW (so 16A each phase) it will just have an output of 3 kW. That is really stupid and sad. Although our AC charging infrastructure here in Europe is generally stronger and offers way more power (11 kW standard, 22 or even 43 kw common) than in the US, they don't make any use of it.
Like Electric Terry wrote in the "dreams for 2018" thread, I'm starting to think Zero doesn't actually have execs that ride street motorcycles for non-commuting purposes. For commuting, the current range was already plenty.
The big missing pieces for touring or sport-touring is range, range, range, range and range, and decent charging.

Every single review, in multiple languages, that I've read of the S/SR/DSR ever has always ended with the bottom line: "Not yet ready for prime time due to the range issue", or "suitable as a commuter if you have another bike for day trips".
Newsflash for Zero: Many if not most markets are not like the US, and people can't afford or don't have garage space to keep more than a single bike, that has to o it all.
 
The requirement is
1) 150 miles on a tank at real highway speeds (80mph), preferably 200mi. And without going beyond a 250kg curb weight, or a bike that costs $25-$30K.
2) Being able to charge 80%-90% of that tank in 45min. Even that's not ideal, but at least I'd be able to plan a day ride with that 45min coinciding with a major meal break, plus another 20-30min topping off session on the return leg.

Tiny baby steps like the new Charge Tank are frustrating... $2300 for something which not only should be bog-standard, but takes up the only factory option for increased AER (the Power Tank).
Yes, 10-15% increases for onboard battery are nice, but only go so far. The 20-30% achievable with a decent fairing (not streamliner) for highway speeds are sorely needed.
Right now looks like there's not gonna be a Zero in my foreseeable future.
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Doctorbass

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2017, 10:40:52 AM »

I'm not so sure about that, the last charge tank was also delivered with an J1772 inlet in Europe while everything is Mennekes over here.
Mennekes type charging can supply yup to 43kW of power so it should be able to sip 6kW on one phase but the most common charging stations here are 3-phase 11kW which will halve the charging power if they use only one phase.

It does have a J1772 once again, so just single phase, no onboard considered (driving it around but not using it) and exactly like you described it, on most AC stations which just offer 11 kW (so 16A each phase) it will just have an output of 3 kW. That is really stupid and sad. Although our AC charging infrastructure here in Europe is generally stronger and offers way more power (11 kW standard, 22 or even 43 kw common) than in the US, they don't make any use of it.
Like Electric Terry wrote in the "dreams for 2018" thread, I'm starting to think Zero doesn't actually have execs that ride street motorcycles for non-commuting purposes. For commuting, the current range was already plenty.
The big missing pieces for touring or sport-touring is range, range, range, range and range, and decent charging.

Every single review, in multiple languages, that I've read of the S/SR/DSR ever has always ended with the bottom line: "Not yet ready for prime time due to the range issue", or "suitable as a commuter if you have another bike for day trips".
Newsflash for Zero: Many if not most markets are not like the US, and people can't afford or don't have garage space to keep more than a single bike, that has to o it all.
 
The requirement is
1) 150 miles on a tank at real highway speeds (80mph), preferably 200mi. And without going beyond a 250kg curb weight, or a bike that costs $25-$30K.
2) Being able to charge 80%-90% of that tank in 45min. Even that's not ideal, but at least I'd be able to plan a day ride with that 45min coinciding with a major meal break, plus another 20-30min topping off session on the return leg.

Tiny baby steps like the new Charge Tank are frustrating... $2300 for something which not only should be bog-standard, but takes up the only factory option for increased AER (the Power Tank).
Yes, 10-15% increases for onboard battery are nice, but only go so far. The 20-30% achievable with a decent fairing (not streamliner) for highway speeds are sorely needed.
Right now looks like there's not gonna be a Zero in my foreseeable future.

While i agree with some of the above,  I am not sure you realize what it involve for requesting "(80mph), preferably for 200mi"...With the actual fairing, 80mph will not be very confortable .. adn worst for 200mph at that speed!

With actual fairing, running (80mph), for preferably 200mi would require about 40kWh!!.. that's 3 times the regular battery monolith energy!!

and charging 80% of that in 45 minutes would require about 40kW!!.. the problem is that the 40kW J1772 are very RARE.. you would need level 3 DC charge station.. however the one that can take the voltage of the Zero ( 102V) is very rare or not existant...

So... Conclusion :fairing are important!... Terry ever observed up to 100% range boost with the epic full unconventional  fairing... so i guess Zero could improove range by 25% easy.. witch woudl require 25% less battery and probably also cost cheaper than battery.

Doc
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Richard230

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2017, 07:37:35 PM »

The other thing that we all have to keep in mind is that electric propulsion technology that is applicable to a small motorcycle frame is not well established or supported by the component industry. There just isn't a large enough market to develop specific technology for this application - yet.  Most of the advancements are going to have to come from the automobile industry, which is much better funded and buys components in vastly greater volumes than does Zero, and the like.

A lot still needs to change, such as the high-speed electric motorcycle market going from sales of maybe 2000 units a year to 200,000 units a year.  When that happens, the big motorcycle manufacturers will jump in, component prices will drop and performance will dramatically increase.  I don't see something like this happening within the next ten years - unless there is another 1970's-type "gas crisis", or government pollution regulations become so draconian that electric vehicles are the only personal transportation that can be sold to the public, as has been discussed in some countries in Europe.

Anyway, I am going for the "bird in the hand" and not the "one in the bush".  ;)
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NEW2elec

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2017, 08:17:34 PM »

Richard the latest episode of the Youtube show "Fully Charged" shows Bosch with scalable components that work for sporty ebikes retro fitted east block scooters and small car EV's.  They seem pretty weak for now but plug and play is on it's way.

Now as to the charging, everyone knows J1772 isn't the best option (in the grand scheme) for charging EV's.  The fact that it's "ok" and has taken so much market share has everyone shrugging their shoulders and accepting this false solution.  It's a slippery slope of pumping money into a option that is not good enough for the mass public's idea of "refueling".
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 08:34:48 PM by NEW2elec »
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MichaelJohn

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2017, 10:46:34 PM »

Anyway, I am going for the "bird in the hand" and not the "one in the bush".  ;)

Agree completely. Asking for quantum leaps in range and charging and then being annoyed that Zero can't produce miracles is downright ungrateful. They have made improvements every year and have come a long way. I am elated that Zero even exists and produces a real-world electric motorcyle that I can walk in and buy. If not for Zero where would we be?  Yes there are well known limitations and I would love to see a fairing but I don't mind at all having a second motorcycle for longer trips - in fact, I enjoy it. Besides, my Zero has enough range for 90% of my riding anyway. It is unbeatable on shorter trips and around town - just ask the Buell rider that I absolutely smoked at a stoplight yesterday. Have some patience, the bikes are getting better and Zero has done an incredible job just by putting electric motorcycles on the map.
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wavelet

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2017, 03:25:05 AM »

The other thing that we all have to keep in mind is that electric propulsion technology that is applicable to a small motorcycle frame is not well established or supported by the component industry. There just isn't a large enough market to develop specific technology for this application - yet.  Most of the advancements are going to have to come from the automobile industry, which is much better funded and buys components in vastly greater volumes than does Zero, and the like.

A lot still needs to change, such as the high-speed electric motorcycle market going from sales of maybe 2000 units a year to 200,000 units a year.  When that happens, the big motorcycle manufacturers will jump in, component prices will drop and performance will dramatically increase.  I don't see something like this happening within the next ten years - unless there is another 1970's-type "gas crisis", or government pollution regulations become so draconian that electric vehicles are the only personal transportation that can be sold to the public, as has been discussed in some countries in Europe.
I'm aware that BEV bikes are still a tiny market (although Zero itself already sold 2400 bikes in 2014; 2015 was "a lot  less than 10K" according to their VP sales,  but I thought they were already in the ~5K units/year territory -- can't find a reference a.t.m.) -- just like motorcycles are a small market compared to cars with the attendant disadvantages of low-volume production.
I'm not expecting propulsion tech per se to be as advanced & compact as for BEV cars...  I also realize that the real difficulty in achieving good efficiency at high-ish speeds is in making bikes aerodynamic without fully enclosing everything including the rider. That's after all the reason for the really bad fuel economy of ICE motorcycles vs. cars, despite the much lower weight (30mph city scooters excepted).

I also understand Zero is trying to be very cautious, having seen what happened to every other would-be e-motorcycle maker (jury being still out on Energica) and wanting to avoid the same fate. The attempt the last couple of years to focus on fleet sales is clearly part of that, and smart IMO.

All that said, there are points in time where any startup company has to take risks. I'm thinking Zero is at or near that point... A lot of the street-motorcycle market uses bikes for weekend/vacation leisure trips, with or without commuting added (actually, in the US, I'm pretty sure that market's far larger than commuting). I have a lot of environmentally minded, and/or tech-minded, riding friends, none of whom would consider a bike they can't take weekend day trips on (*).

This is what I mean by a "day trip", in my neck of the woods:
— ~100mi at ~70mph on the freeway to get to the fun roads;
— ~100mi ditto to get back home
— ~150-200mi at a range of slower speeds (30-60mph, but a lot of acceleration/deceleration) on the twisties & sweepers.
(and a bit more than that for a bit of emergency reserve, like accidents, breakdowns etc.)

That doesn’t mean a 400mi range is needed on a single charge, but for a reasonable day-tour experience, I want to be able to do it with at most 2 charging stops (one 45min at lunch, and an additional 30min one).

Look, I'm not asking for radically denser or cheaper batteries or motors. My criticism of Zero is that they're not addressing the two big issues necessary for this (much more important than a 10% improvement in cell capacity, IMHO):

1) Improving efficiency via aerodynamics, which is clearly possible and necessary (and Electric Terry has demonstrated that it's possible in practice, even on a bike with lots of extra battery & charger weight).
Yes, I'm sure Zero doesn't have any aerodynamics experts in-house, let alone a wind tunnel. But they could certainly team up with a fairing maker for this  and sell the resulting fairings either themselves, or as dealer-installed add-ons, for serious mark ups.

2) Quick Charging is a huge deal.
a)Even with the new Charge Tank, it's ~1.5hr to charge the new S to 80% (for ~80mi highway riding).

b) Without it, the stock charger is borderline even for overnight. If I return from a trip or from work late at night, I may not have >6 hours of charging until I need to ride the next morning to work, so it's going to take 2 days+ of night time charging to get back a full charge... If I don't have workplace charging but need the full highway range (~80mi) for a long trip before then, I'm in trouble. Even if high-rate charging takes a lot of space on the bike or would be very expensive, not having 2-3kW as standard AC charging is inexcusable, particularly in 220V countries like here, where every single wall outlet is capable of a sustained 15A 220V (I have a 3kW electric kettle).

b) Energica seems to be able to fit a DC CCS charger, a 3kW AC charger and a ~12kWh battery on a bike, on a slightly longer bike with similar-capacity battery. Yes, it's a lot heavier (mostly  because their batteries are less dense, IIRC), but still, that includes the fairing. CCS is gaining quick acceptance everywhere (except possibly Japan), and essentially all DCFC stations going forward will support it. The Energica charger does 20kW, from reports I've seen, which is quite enough for 80% of a 13kWh in 30min.

In the future, once  there are bike design with  additional battery bricks for 21kWh / 28kWh, that extra charging speed will be absolutely necessary anyway.
If that solution is too expensive for Zero to have it standard, make it optional but leave space for it so it doesn't take up lots of space.

Without both those improvements, any kind of day-trip use-case is out. Nothing against Diginow's solution, but it requires a lot of DIY and messing about with electrics, aside from the space and expense. That's a pretty big barrier to adoption.

With both above improvements, and a battery like the new 2018 models', I could get 100-110mi on a "tank" at slightly lower highway speeds than I'm used to, with 10-15 mi of safety margin -- I could compromise on that as an early-adopter, but below that, my entire justification for a motorcycle is out.

Quote
Anyway, I am going for the "bird in the hand" and not the "one in the bush".  ;)
That's just it -- if Zero was willing, I'm sure this would be doable in 1-2 years, not 10.


(*)We have a 250% Customs Duty on motorcycles, and "only" 80% on electric ones...
Mandatory liability insurance (1st+3d party medical only, not damage to any property) on a  >250CC  bike with max discount for a 50-y.o. rider with no previous claims or license suspensions would be the equivalent of US$1130 .
Annual comprehensive coverage (to the bike itself + 3d party property) for, say, a new R1200GS (MSRP and street price ~US$40100) would be an additional US$4000 (not a typo).
So most folks here can't afford to keep 2 bikes...
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wavelet

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2017, 03:32:32 AM »

Anyway, I am going for the "bird in the hand" and not the "one in the bush".  ;)

Agree completely. Asking for quantum leaps in range and charging and then being annoyed that Zero can't produce miracles is downright ungrateful. They have made improvements every year and have come a long way. I am elated that Zero even exists and produces a real-world electric motorcyle that I can walk in and buy. If not for Zero where would we be?  Yes there are well known limitations and I would love to see a fairing but I don't mind at all having a second motorcycle for longer trips - in fact, I enjoy it. Besides, my Zero has enough range for 90% of my riding anyway. It is unbeatable on shorter trips and around town - just ask the Buell rider that I absolutely smoked at a stoplight yesterday. Have some patience, the bikes are getting better and Zero has done an incredible job just by putting electric motorcycles on the map.
What's with the "ungrateful"? I'm happy for you you live somewhere where keeping 2 bikes is an option. Not the case for lots of people, myself included.

I stated what would be necessary for Zero to sell me a bike and (IMHO) to lots of other people -- again, the number of mainstream reviews where the bottom line is "not ready for prime time" is instructive, and pretty much the only real issues are range/charging. Doing it here, among other places, because AFAIK some if not many Zero employees follow the board.

As for patience... I'm hoping to be able to justify a Zero before I'm a complete codger (-: .
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MichaelJohn

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #55 on: October 23, 2017, 04:12:21 AM »

Anyway, I am going for the "bird in the hand" and not the "one in the bush".  ;)

Agree completely. Asking for quantum leaps in range and charging and then being annoyed that Zero can't produce miracles is downright ungrateful. They have made improvements every year and have come a long way. I am elated that Zero even exists and produces a real-world electric motorcyle that I can walk in and buy. If not for Zero where would we be?  Yes there are well known limitations and I would love to see a fairing but I don't mind at all having a second motorcycle for longer trips - in fact, I enjoy it. Besides, my Zero has enough range for 90% of my riding anyway. It is unbeatable on shorter trips and around town - just ask the Buell rider that I absolutely smoked at a stoplight yesterday. Have some patience, the bikes are getting better and Zero has done an incredible job just by putting electric motorcycles on the map.
What's with the "ungrateful"? I'm happy for you you live somewhere where keeping 2 bikes is an option. Not the case for lots of people, myself included.

I stated what would be necessary for Zero to sell me a bike and (IMHO) to lots of other people -- again, the number of mainstream reviews where the bottom line is "not ready for prime time" is instructive, and pretty much the only real issues are range/charging. Doing it here, among other places, because AFAIK some if not many Zero employees follow the board.

As for patience... I'm hoping to be able to justify a Zero before I'm a complete codger (-: .

Maybe I should've said unrealistic instead of ungrateful. My point is that Zero gets a lot of flak and yet they're the only game in town and I think they trying very hard to make improvements. They are a small company, not Tesla. I am grateful that they are making real motorcycles that work very well for a lot of us.

PS, there is nothing wrong with being a codger. I happen to be 66 and I play my 20-year-old taller, stronger son even in one-on-one basketball, still race bicycles and I ride the hell out of my motorcycles. May you enjoy codgerhood as much as I do. :)
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Richard230

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #56 on: October 23, 2017, 04:56:55 AM »

I think Zero is doing the best that they can in a price sensitive market.  No doubt they could provide a fancy fairing, more batteries, a fast DC charger and a bigger motor - if they wanted to sell their bikes for $40K USD (like Lightning, as an example).  But then they would sell much fewer of them and that wouldn't do much to expand the market to non-EV enthusiasts. No doubt Zero is trying to get new IC motorcycle enthusiasts to buy their products, not so much the people who visit this site. That is the way you slowly drag the electric motorcycles into the mainstream motorcycle market. ;)
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togo

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #57 on: October 23, 2017, 05:29:53 AM »

Richard the latest episode of the Youtube show "Fully Charged" shows Bosch with scalable components that work for sporty ebikes retro fitted east block scooters and small car EV's.  ...

Thanks for the reference to the Fully Charged episode. 

I love the East German scooter resurrected as an electric vehicle.
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wavelet

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #58 on: October 23, 2017, 07:49:27 AM »

I think Zero is doing the best that they can in a price sensitive market.  No doubt they could provide a fancy fairing, more batteries, a fast DC charger and a bigger motor - if they wanted to sell their bikes for $40K USD (like Lightning, as an example). But then they would sell much fewer of them and that wouldn't do much to expand the market to non-EV enthusiasts.
Maybe the market is that price-sensitive, though I'm not so sure, given my local ICE motorcycle market that manages to sell bikes at all despite said 250% tariffs (granted, less per-capita than elsewhere... 90% of powered two-wheelers are <250CC scooters, vs. 10% in Europe or the US). Or maybe Zero is still too small / doesn't have enough investment capital to do the extra R&D in parallel with the drivetrain improvements, improving quality & service, marketing etc.

Quote
  No doubt Zero is trying to get new IC motorcycle enthusiasts to buy their products, not so much the people who visit this site.
Aha! But that was one of my points, I suspect Zero will very quickly reach the point of exhausting commuters... Aside from real dirt bikes & fleets, that leaves the road-trip folks.

Quote
That is the way you slowly drag the electric motorcycles into the mainstream motorcycle market. ;)
I hope you're right -- it'll be very sad if Zero fails, leaving essentially noone. If that happens, I suspect it'll delay e-motorcycles by another 20-30 years.
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Richard230

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Re: Zero has released 2018 models.
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2017, 08:01:52 PM »

I think Zero is doing the best that they can in a price sensitive market.  No doubt they could provide a fancy fairing, more batteries, a fast DC charger and a bigger motor - if they wanted to sell their bikes for $40K USD (like Lightning, as an example). But then they would sell much fewer of them and that wouldn't do much to expand the market to non-EV enthusiasts.
Maybe the market is that price-sensitive, though I'm not so sure, given my local ICE motorcycle market that manages to sell bikes at all despite said 250% tariffs (granted, less per-capita than elsewhere... 90% of powered two-wheelers are <250CC scooters, vs. 10% in Europe or the US). Or maybe Zero is still too small / doesn't have enough investment capital to do the extra R&D in parallel with the drivetrain improvements, improving quality & service, marketing etc.

Quote
  No doubt Zero is trying to get new IC motorcycle enthusiasts to buy their products, not so much the people who visit this site.
Aha! But that was one of my points, I suspect Zero will very quickly reach the point of exhausting commuters... Aside from real dirt bikes & fleets, that leaves the road-trip folks.

Quote
That is the way you slowly drag the electric motorcycles into the mainstream motorcycle market. ;)
I hope you're right -- it'll be very sad if Zero fails, leaving essentially noone. If that happens, I suspect it'll delay e-motorcycles by another 20-30 years.

My opinions are developed from my own 55-year motorcycle riding/purchasing experiences in the U.S.( which, granted is a different type of market than in many other countries) and whenever I can discuss the subject of electric motorcycles with the general public and current IC motorcycle owners.  The two major comments that I hear from the public is that EV range is too short and that the price is too high.  Now most of us could make an argument that these comments are not entirely valid, but that is what the public's perception appears to be. And perception is what really counts to a new vehicle manufacturer trying to expand the market within the limits of their finances - and that doesn't have the type of resources that a company like Tesla or GM does.
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