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[Richard230]

This is likely no surprise to anyone, but large (and expensive) motorcycles sales are dropping, with Harley leading the pack - according to this Bike Bandit blog:
http://www.bikebandit.com/blog/post/large-motorcycles-are-dying-in-the-us-and-harley-davidson-is-dying-fastest 

Perhaps Zero will be able to pick up the slack? 

[stevenh]

This is likely no surprise to anyone, but large (and expensive) motorcycles sales are dropping, with Harley leading the pack - according to this Bike Bandit blog:
http://www.bikebandit.com/blog/post/large-motorcycles-are-dying-in-the-us-and-harley-davidson-is-dying-fastest 

Perhaps Zero will be able to pick up the slack? 

With small and expensive motorcycles 

[Richard230]

This is likely no surprise to anyone, but large (and expensive) motorcycles sales are dropping, with Harley leading the pack - according to this Bike Bandit blog:
http://www.bikebandit.com/blog/post/large-motorcycles-are-dying-in-the-us-and-harley-davidson-is-dying-fastest 

Perhaps Zero will be able to pick up the slack? 

With small and expensive motorcycles 

True, but IC motorcycles are increasing in price every year, while Zero motorcycles are decreasing in price slightly and you are getting more for your money, every year.  One day (some day) electric motorcycles will be cheaper to buy and own than IC motorcycles.  All they have to do is to sell a lot more of them and get those battery prices down. 

Which reminds me: I heard on the news today that China plans to produce three times the number of lithium batteries each year than will the Tesla Gigafactory.  So competition is ramping up when it comes to battery production, which will bring down prices for all electric-powered devices - including Zeros.   

[JaimeC]

Zeros are already cheaper to own than ICE bikes despite the initial buy-in price.  Forget the "fueling" costs... the maintenance costs are trivial compared to what an ICE owner goes through on a regular basis.

In fact, owning the Zero has remarkably DECREASED how much I've spent on my two ICE motorcycles since I'm not racking up the miles on either of them as quickly as I have in the past.  I average about 18,000 miles a year, previously split between two ICE bikes with a 6,000 mile maintanence interval.  Now, more than half that number is on the Zero, leaving the remaining 9,000 miles split between the two ICE bikes.  If it weren't for the fact that all three bikes are maintained by the same dealership they'd almost forget who I was (the shop knows me well as I'm their only customer with a 200,000 mile bike that is still regularly used).

[Richard230]

I just had the 12,000-mile servicing performed on my BMW R1200RS.  It set me back $650 and they didn't even have to adjust the valves - which would have added another $100.

[Doug S]

When us older riders started riding, the only street motorcycles available other than Harleys were what would now be called "UJMs" (Universal Japanese Motorcycles). They were fun, inexpensive, inoffensive ways of getting around. But then they started making them more powerful, more expensive, louder, and split into two camps: cruisers and sportbikes. The technology tripled, performance skyrocketed, and they became as much lifestyles as transportation -- you wouldn't even consider riding a Harley wearing sportbike leathers, or vice versa. Helmets alone now run many hundreds of dollars, or even four figures if you want a really cool one. I remember buying my first bike, a 1984 KZ550 off the showroom floor, for $2000, with enough left over to get a helmet, some gloves, the first month's insurance premium and a couple tanks of gas. You couldn't even come close to that now, even correcting for inflation.

I wonder sometimes how the kids even COULD get into riding if they wanted to, given the budget constraints young people have, or what their motivation would be for wanting to try it out. If you're not interested in either the boy-racer or leather badass lifestyles, what does motorcycling really have to offer nowadays? Of "fun, inexpensive and inoffensive", only fun is easy to achieve now, and I wonder how much of that is because I'm already a rider. I wouldn't even want to try learning to ride on a 1000-pound cruiser or a fire-breathing rubber shredder.

Electric bikes are expensive, but that's changing (slowly), and they're big steps up in both fun and inoffensiveness. You don't have to be a hoodlum (or a wannabe), a rebel of any sort, or interested in any particular lifestyle. They don't literally scream at the whole neighborhood for attention, they don't anger or frighten other drivers, and they have a lot of appeal to earth-lovers and responsible, respectable people of all sorts. Most motorcycles left the mainstream for small niche markets; our type of bikes are bringing that back again.

[Richard230]

My first motorcycle was a 250cc Yamaha bought new for $585.  Prices have gone up quite a bit since then, but performance, quality and reliability have increased much more over the past 55 years.   

[MrDude_1]

Zeros are already cheaper to own than ICE bikes despite the initial buy-in price.  Forget the "fueling" costs... the maintenance costs are trivial compared to what an ICE owner goes through on a regular basis.

That is assuming the ICE bike owner pays for everything to be done to their bike on a regular basis with no work on their own.
AND
That is assuming that the new zero owner KNOWS of all the work and what it costs had they chosen an ICE bike.

Personally, I have no idea what you're talking about.
Chain lube is cheap. a clean/lube can be done in under 3 mins if you know what you're doing and keep everything handy.
checking valves is free... and I never had to shim anything other than Ducatis. Every one of my Hondas went its full life (70 something thousand, 50k and 30ish) with no adjustment needed. The 2strokes of course, required no valve checks.
oil changes? 15mins and $15....

whats left? a whole bunch of stuff thats not the engine or chain that the zero also has. chassis. brakes. bearings. they are still there.


so for 12k a year (thats commuting everyday via ICE bike) thats 2 cans of lube, about $15 and 2.5 oil changes, call it 3... and call them extra expensive... so thats maybe $100 a year in non-fuel costs.
you cant even buy a J1172 connector for that.

[stevenh]

My first motorcycle was a 250cc Yamaha bought new for $585.  Prices have gone up quite a bit since then, but performance, quality and reliability have increased much more over the past 55 years.   

My first ride was a used Yamaha XS360 (1977).  I purchased it in 1980 for $500.00, and sold it 30,000 miles later in 1985 for $350.00.  Those were the days!

Steve

[JaimeC]

"Checking valves is free"

IF you do your own work.  However, a shop will charge you labor which around here is $125.00 an hour billed in half-hour intervals.  Exhaust valves seem to go out of adjustment more frequently than intake valves.  On my K1200LT they seem to be fully bedded in now as they haven't required shims for the past several years but in the early days I was always getting at least one or two shims replaced every 24,000 miles.  This was a piece of cake on my original 8-valve K100 which had no bodywork to remove and the shims were over the buckets.  However the 16-valve K bikes are more involved as you have to pull the cams to replace the shims (the buckets WERE the shims).  I don't know what system the new transverse-mounted K engines use but the 1600s have 24 valves to check as they're six cylinder beasts with four valve heads.  Like I said, at $125.00 an hour, that all adds up quickly.

[Doug S]

Chain lube is irrelevant, some electric bikes have chain drive, and some ICE bikes have belts. All bikes have final drives that require SOME maintenance.

But you're leaving out spark plugs, plug wires, air filters, gas filters, oil filters, coolant, plus a long list of parts that do fail and need replacement: Fuel injectors, ignition coils, timing belts/chains, fuel, oil and coolant pumps, gaskets of all sorts, fuel petcocks, emissions equipment...and these are just off the top of my head. Plus, I think you're minimizing -- I never once took the valve covers off my KZ550, ZX-1 or CBR600 that I didn't have to replace at least one or two shims. I thought I'd gone to heaven once when I could simply swap two and bring both valves in spec -- no trip to Kawi store to buy new shims! If you're sloppy about valve clearances, that's doesn't count as a virtue of the bike's.

Let's not over- or under-sell the differences between electrics and ICEs. The maintenance differences aren't soul-crushing, but they're significant.

[MrDude_1]

But you're leaving out spark plugs, plug wires, air filters, gas filters, oil filters, coolant, plus a long list of parts that do fail and need replacement: Fuel injectors, ignition coils, timing belts/chains, fuel, oil and coolant pumps, gaskets of all sorts, fuel petcocks, emissions equipment...and these are just off the top of my head.

ok, spark plugs. modern iridium spark plugs last 50k. thats longer than most people will ride their bike.
plug wires... dont exist on most modern bikes. they have coil on plug.
air filters are cheap and easy... but I use washable ones. they cost more, but paper ones are under $20
gas filters? yeah. they get changed as often as a car. they'll get changed with the plugs, long after the first owner is done.
oil filter. $4-$11. they spin on and off. whats the big deal?
coolant? most people dont change it. I do. I dont mind the $15 cost.

so for expected maintenance... you're at what.. a couple hundred dollars a year if you ride 1k a month every month year round. assuming you can do the absolute basics of maintenance. we're talking youtube skill level.
dont like that? add in $100 in labor at a shop each time... 4 years later you're still cheaper and likely looking for a new bike.

ok, unexpected maintenance. first, we're talking new, so warranty applies 90% of the time... however most bikes are just as reliable as modern cars. they dont need much. they dont break often, and when they do... you just fix them. not only is it not magic, its easy to troubleshoot and fix. Parts are easy to get. Theres no logging in MrAnderson, you dont need to know the secrets of The Matrix to fix it. Not to mention, its likely to be fixed faster. I can get any HondaYamaZuki part here faster than you can get a new charger from zero.
I love zero, but talking repair maintenance is not bringing up their strong points.

[MrDude_1]

"Checking valves is free"

IF you do your own work.  However, a shop will charge you labor which around here is $125.00 an hour billed in half-hour intervals.  Exhaust valves seem to go out of adjustment more frequently than intake valves.  On my K1200LT they seem to be fully bedded in now as they haven't required shims for the past several years but in the early days I was always getting at least one or two shims replaced every 24,000 miles.  This was a piece of cake on my original 8-valve K100 which had no bodywork to remove and the shims were over the buckets.  However the 16-valve K bikes are more involved as you have to pull the cams to replace the shims (the buckets WERE the shims).  I don't know what system the new transverse-mounted K engines use but the 1600s have 24 valves to check as they're six cylinder beasts with four valve heads.  Like I said, at $125.00 an hour, that all adds up quickly.

I had one of the best Ducati techs in the world living here in Charleston for awhile. I paid him to do the duc valves. $125 or so... if you're paying over 1hr of time for a valve check, you're being ripped. You shouldnt pay more because the tech is slower than your average bear.

[JaimeC]

You realize the clock starts when they remove the first piece of bodywork, right?  Some bikes, the valves are easy to get to (like a BMW boxer twin, or a Moto Guzzi).  Others are a LOT harder to access.  Checking the valves may be quick, but replacing shims takes time... especially on those bikes that involve pulling the cam shafts.  BMW wasn't alone in that design, either.  The Kawasaki GPz bikes in the 80s were the first I'm aware of to feature the "shim UNDER bucket" design.  Best is a bike with hydraulic valves.  Those you don't have to mess with, but too few manufacturers use them.  You'll find them mostly in low-revving twins, not in the high-revving multis (though Honda did have a few of those in the 80s too).

Of course, once you've done the valves, you'll want to balance the throttle bodies as well (for those bikes that have more than one... which is most of them these days).

None of this crap do we have to worry about with electrics, and that was the point.  No filters, no valves, no spark plugs, no clutches, no oil (well, I understand the Brammo/Victory did have the latter two), no coolant.

[MrDude_1]

You realize the clock starts when they remove the first piece of bodywork, right?  Some bikes, the valves are easy to get to (like a BMW boxer twin, or a Moto Guzzi).  Others are a LOT harder to access.  Checking the valves may be quick, but replacing shims takes time... especially on those bikes that involve pulling the cam shafts.  BMW wasn't alone in that design, either.  The Kawasaki GPz bikes in the 80s were the first I'm aware of to feature the "shim UNDER bucket" design.  Best is a bike with hydraulic valves.  Those you don't have to mess with, but too few manufacturers use them.  You'll find them mostly in low-revving twins, not in the high-revving multis (though Honda did have a few of those in the 80s too).

Of course, once you've done the valves, you'll want to balance the throttle bodies as well (for those bikes that have more than one... which is most of them these days).

None of this crap do we have to worry about with electrics, and that was the point.  No filters, no valves, no spark plugs, no clutches, no oil (well, I understand the Brammo/Victory did have the latter two), no coolant.

why do you keep bringing up 1980s motorcycles? they're 35 years old. MODERN NEW motorcycles (not from a bouquet manufacturer) vs a NEW Zero is a fair comparison.

as far as "the clock" goes, a dealer goes by book hours. This means if it says 1hour to do a task, you pay for 1 hour of time. The mechanic gets paid for 1 hour of time too. If hes good, he does it in 30mins, moves to the next thing and makes bank. If he sucks he takes 2 hours and gets paid half.
If you're paying for how long it actually takes, you're not at a dealer approved shop, you're at bobs-fix-it-all shop and hes guessing.
That would explain your 2nd point. as complicated as it may seem to you, after the first time I could pull the fairings off all my bikes in under a minute. If it took someone more than 10 mins to have the cam-cover off to check the valve lash on a modern sportbike, they are not an experianced mechanic... even though you have a MASSIVE cast aluminum frame and stock surrounding it. even though it has fairings and a airbox as big as the "tank".. its 10 mins and you're ready to start sticking feeler gauges in there... or you dont know what the hell you're doing.. or you're at a very "relaxed pace".
Would I prefer hydraulic valves? My natural response is yes...I hate checking valves. I think the hydraulic valvetrain design makes more sense for a street-bike. However the empirical evidence over the years has proven to me that the shim under bucket design is very reliable, wears very little, and keeps its values. I think the key is to change the oil regularly. Being able to rev to 13k is also a plus. lol.