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[nevetsyad]

Ah, sevcon freaked out.

 08054     04/13/2017 13:29:29   SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame      Error Code: 0x5000, Error Reg: 0x40, Sevcon Error Code: 0x46C3, Data: 04 01 00, Unknown
 08055     04/13/2017 13:29:29   SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame      Error Code: 0x5000, Error Reg: 0x40, Sevcon Error Code: 0x52C2, Data: 00 10 00, Unknown
 08056     04/13/2017 13:29:29   Restarting Sevcon to clear cutout fault
 08057     04/13/2017 13:29:29   Module 00 Opening Contactor  vmod: 107.764V, batt curr: -346A
 08058     04/13/2017 13:29:29   Module 01 Opening Contactor  vmod:   0.000V, batt curr:   0A
 08059     04/13/2017 13:29:29   Sevcon Turned Off
 08060     04/13/2017 13:29:29   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive OFF

[nevetsyad]

Since I was in the parser, I pulled up my SR logs. 28% power available at 64% SOC. Yeah, that checks out, seems normal. Nothing wrong with this bike...

07615     01/11/2017 14:26:18   Riding                     PackTemp: h 19C, l 19C, PackSOC: 64%, Vpack: 92.516V, MotAmps: 148, BattAmps: 188, Mods: 10, MotTemp:  69C, CtrlTemp:  26C, AmbTemp:  15C, MotRPM:4564, Odo:12518km
 07616     01/11/2017 14:26:18   Batt Dischg Cur Limited    199 A (28%), MinCell: 3249mV, MaxPackTemp: 19C
When I got home:
07639     01/11/2017 14:37:18   Disarmed                   PackTemp: h 24C, l 24C, PackSOC: 53%, Vpack:102.373V, MotAmps:   0, BattAmps:   2, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  59C, CtrlTemp:  21C, AmbTemp:  13C, MotRPM:   0, Odo:12530km

[mrwilsn]

Since I was in the parser, I pulled up my SR logs. 28% power available at 64% SOC. Yeah, that checks out, seems normal. Nothing wrong with this bike...

07615     01/11/2017 14:26:18   Riding                     PackTemp: h 19C, l 19C, PackSOC: 64%, Vpack: 92.516V, MotAmps: 148, BattAmps: 188, Mods: 10, MotTemp:  69C, CtrlTemp:  26C, AmbTemp:  15C, MotRPM:4564, Odo:12518km
 07616     01/11/2017 14:26:18   Batt Dischg Cur Limited    199 A (28%), MinCell: 3249mV, MaxPackTemp: 19C
When I got home:
07639     01/11/2017 14:37:18   Disarmed                   PackTemp: h 24C, l 24C, PackSOC: 53%, Vpack:102.373V, MotAmps:   0, BattAmps:   2, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  59C, CtrlTemp:  21C, AmbTemp:  13C, MotRPM:   0, Odo:12530km

Not sure why it happened but at 64% the logs show 92V which is really low and would cause the bike to reduce power....But when you got home and at 53% it reads 102V which is still lower than I would expect for a bike that's at 53%.

Also at 64% your log shows min cell is at 3.2V...If every cell was at that voltage your pack would be at about 90V.  If the 92V reading is accurate then they aren't all that low. Which means cell balance is probably high.

Do you have power tank? I have read some people have had issues with power tank getting out of whack to the rest of the pack wreaking havoc.

The lowest I have ever seen my 2014 Zero S is 91V and that was at the side of the road after the SOC suddenly dropped from 14% down to 0% and the bike decided to stop moving.  I think that issue got fixed in 2015. On my 2017 Zero SR it hits 0% at about 95V or 96V and keeps going for miles.

My guess is you need a new battery...Or possibly a new BMS.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[mrwilsn]

Hire only EEs.

Overkill.... Using engineers to do a techs job is going to cost at least $200 an hour... Probably more....A better idea would be to spend more on the front end screening parts so they don't break down in the first place....Quality control can work wonders.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[nevetsyad]

No Powertank. I really hope Zero finally admits something is wrong with my bike and replaces the monolith, and or Sevcon. I've been messing around with this thing since it lost its charger and started randomly shutting down weeks after purchase, back in 2015!

EE's get paid that much? I'm in the wrong field. How about we look for IT certifications and mechanical skills? None of my dealers have seen anything wrong with the dozen logs I've pulled, or the full logs pulled by Zero. I finally finished my degree and looked into parsing them, which it turns out is stupid easy thanks to the community now, and sure enough, I spot issues in moments, right on the time and dates I told people I had problems. I feel quite let down, I've been without my bike for about four months total now, and had serious safety issue while riding, while the logs show exactly what I'm reporting!

[mrwilsn]

EE's get paid that much? I'm in the wrong field. How about we look for IT certifications and mechanical skills?

No, they don't....  But when you go in for work that's how much you'll get charged because engineers do make a lot more than a mechanic.  When you go into a shop and they want $60 or more per hour to work on your bike that mechanic isn't making $60 per hour either....You are also paying for overhead, management and profit.

I think for the most part Zero has the right approach by having tech training for dealers.  My dealer sent two of his mechanics for training last year.  The thing I'm not sure of is if Zero issues a certification and requires that the mechanics be certified in order to pay the dealer to do the warranty work.  If they don't, they should.

I think the problem, in addition to some of those mentioned with all warranty work in general, is that Zero is just understaffed in the customer service department relative to the number of issues these bikes have.  They could fix that with better quality control and/or just hire more people.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

[nevetsyad]

I just want one at each regional shop, they can assist the lower paid workers. A special projects type of person, for the more difficult problems.

Last I heard, the dealers pay to send their people to training. Hopefully that isn't the case, because I'm not going to want to send my people to training, so they can do low paying warranty work (mostly involving connecting the bike to a laptop and letting Zero remote in).

The profits seem slim, especially if 10% of all bikes are flawed. I agree, either increase quality control, which I'm sure is much more difficult that it sounds (and they've already made huge strides compared to bikes from just a few years ago), or staff the support section better. I'm still astounded that my logs keep coming back as good, and there's, "nothing wrong with my bike". This is why I bought a helmet cam, to capture the bike "working perfectly" as I glide without power to the side of the road. The more I think about it, the agrier I get.

[Richard230]

I dealt with civil engineering companies for many years.  The rule-of-thumb is that the companies charge 2.2 times the engineer's salary when doing their billing.  I wouldn't be surprised if that still holds true today.

The motorcycle mechanics that I have talked with say that their shops charge about twice their hourly rate, plus the cost of their benefits like health care, on the invoice.  Most motorcycle dealers in the SF Bay Area are now charging $130 an hour and that rate is going nowhere but up, as it is not cheap to live in this area and if they don't pay their technicians enough, they have to move out of the area and then you get no service at all. 

[nevetsyad]

Yeah, most government contracting work, the people get paid up to 50% of their hourly/annual rate. Sounds about standard.

Tried calling my mechanic yesterday and today. I can't get through to him, he's busy. Probably busy working on paying customers. I'm shooting for 6 months of total shop time before my 2 year warranty expires. Looks like I'm on track. I E-mailed everyone I know at Zero yesterday also. They'd better not fix my plastics and tell me to come pick it up, with it's 92 volt at 68% SOC and 190amp performance.

[mrwilsn]

I just want one at each regional shop, they can assist the lower paid workers. A special projects type of person, for the more difficult problems.

Last I heard, the dealers pay to send their people to training. Hopefully that isn't the case, because I'm not going to want to send my people to training, so they can do low paying warranty work (mostly involving connecting the bike to a laptop and letting Zero remote in).

The profits seem slim, especially if 10% of all bikes are flawed. I agree, either increase quality control, which I'm sure is much more difficult that it sounds (and they've already made huge strides compared to bikes from just a few years ago), or staff the support section better. I'm still astounded that my logs keep coming back as good, and there's, "nothing wrong with my bike". This is why I bought a helmet cam, to capture the bike "working perfectly" as I glide without power to the side of the road. The more I think about it, the agrier I get.

Quality control really has a few components.  Setting tolerances that are reasonable and screening very strictly to those tolerances and using data from failures experienced in the field to make future iterations of the product better.  In addition, the screening has to be strictly enforced at every step in the supply chain.  For example, Zero buys chargers from GWP.  All Zero can really do is perform a functional check of the charger to ensure it meets their spec.  If a charger isn't calibrated correctly to 116.2V +/- some tolerance then it should be rejected and sent back to GWP.  Either that's not happening at Zero or they have high tolerance because I have seen more than one charger calibrated to 117V.  That's not going to kill your bike but it is indicative of the steps Zero is taking during production.

But even if that passes with tight tolerances, things can go wrong.  Which is why Zero should flow their tolerances down to GWP.  They would have conversations with them about what tolerances GWP accepts for all their components and they would negotiate the tolerances Zero wants GWP to accept for chargers Zero buys from GWP.  If components are outside the tolerance then GWP either rejects the parts or uses them in chargers that are sold to other customers that will accept higher tolerances.  GWP would then need to flow tolerance requirements down to all their suppliers and so on down the line and Zero should be requiring GWP to do that and following up to make sure it's happening.

This is the way it would happen for a company like Honda or BMW.  From a cost perspective it's harder for Zero because they don't sell enough volume to amortize the cost. It's not really that hard but requires up front investment which can sometimes be challenging to convince the decision makers needs to be spent.  After all , it's hard to increase volume when you don't have a reliable product to sell but it's hard to spend the money when you don't have the volume.  It's likely that it's not happening in a lot of cases and Zero is just buying parts 'off the shelf' and mostly accepting whatever gets sent their way.  I know for certain that they are following a process for the batteries but I don't know what kinds of tolerances they are accepting. I agree Zero has made some pretty big improvements over the years but they definitely still have work to do.

And, yes, I know for a fact that dealers pay for the techs to go to training.  I also know that there is some online work that has to be completed (this could just be for the case where a dealer wants to send a salesperson to the training as opposed to a tech) before they will accept an individual at the training.  Beyond that I don't know what the exact arrangement is but some of the assumptions made in this thread may or may not be true.  For example, the degree to which the dealer gets paid for the warranty work and how profitable it is for the dealer.  It's possible that the dealer may get higher compensation if the tech is trained or it could be that Zero requires techs doing warranty work to be certified and pays the dealers fairly.

Zero really should consider certifying the dealerships themselves in addition to certifying the techs.  A particular shop might be allowed to sell Zero's but might not be certified for warranty work or after warranty repairs.  After warranty period Zero could back any repairs done if you take it to a certified dealer....in other words if you take your bike in for a new charger after warranty is over and the dealer messes up your bike then Zero pays for it as long as the work was done by a certified dealer.  This is a benefit to Zero because they can maintain a network of high quality service centers that won't cause more issues than they solve and it's a win for the customer because they can make the decision to either go to a certified dealer or risk it with a dealer or other shop that's not certified by Zero.

Also, for any dealer that says they stopped selling Zero's because of issues getting parts from or dealing with Zero...in some cases it's probably true.  But in some cases I bet Zero actually dropped the dealer, not the other way around.  If you are only getting the dealers side of the story it's hard to say for sure.

[Kocho]

The "good news" is that if the battery is at fault, you got a 5 year warranty on that, right? So, 3 more years to spend in the shop

It's either the battery that has a bad cell or one of the BMS per-cell module might be reporting or reading wrong, which is probably even worse ...

[nevetsyad]

Get this, an EE wrote me back. lol.

Paraphrasing -
The power reduction looks weird, but not indicative of a short. A short would be causing the entire bike to shut down.

Reply paraphrased -
Here's videos of my bike shutting down while riding it, please reference the dozen+ phone logs and three dealers that have uploaded logs due to complaints of bike shutdown issues.

I am seriously thrilled. She's going to work with the dealer and look into it. I could cry. Dozens of e-mails. Calls to dealers. I bought a helmet cam to try to capture the shutdowns even, to prove I wasn't lying or crazy, since there's never anything in the logs. The embarrassment of my gear head friends learning that my eBike has had issues and no one can find a root cause. Finally, it could all be at an end.

Right as my warranty expires.

[nevetsyad]

Since I was in the parser, I pulled up my SR logs. 28% power available at 64% SOC. Yeah, that checks out, seems normal. Nothing wrong with this bike...

07615     01/11/2017 14:26:18   Riding                     PackTemp: h 19C, l 19C, PackSOC: 64%, Vpack: 92.516V, MotAmps: 148, BattAmps: 188, Mods: 10, MotTemp:  69C, CtrlTemp:  26C, AmbTemp:  15C, MotRPM:4564, Odo:12518km
 07616     01/11/2017 14:26:18   Batt Dischg Cur Limited    199 A (28%), MinCell: 3249mV, MaxPackTemp: 19C
When I got home:
07639     01/11/2017 14:37:18   Disarmed                   PackTemp: h 24C, l 24C, PackSOC: 53%, Vpack:102.373V, MotAmps:   0, BattAmps:   2, Mods: 01, MotTemp:  59C, CtrlTemp:  21C, AmbTemp:  13C, MotRPM:   0, Odo:12530km

Not sure why it happened but at 64% the logs show 92V which is really low and would cause the bike to reduce power....But when you got home and at 53% it reads 102V which is still lower than I would expect for a bike that's at 53%.

Also at 64% your log shows min cell is at 3.2V...If every cell was at that voltage your pack would be at about 90V.  If the 92V reading is accurate then they aren't all that low. Which means cell balance is probably high.

Do you have power tank? I have read some people have had issues with power tank getting out of whack to the rest of the pack wreaking havoc.

The lowest I have ever seen my 2014 Zero S is 91V and that was at the side of the road after the SOC suddenly dropped from 14% down to 0% and the bike decided to stop moving.  I think that issue got fixed in 2015. On my 2017 Zero SR it hits 0% at about 95V or 96V and keeps going for miles.

My guess is you need a new battery...Or possibly a new BMS.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

When you were at 91v, you weren't putting a load on the battery, were you? They should go down several volts at high load.

[madcow]

Finally, I'm simply very happy that I can ride again since the weather in Germany started getting very good lately.

Picked up my bike yesterday and chances are that the French tire shop broke the rear sprocket/axle when changing the tire. It makes sense in so far that the symptoms occured after the change and faulty tire changes have been reportedly causing the sprocket to run uneven. Glad they resolved it under warranty (even though it took quite a while). Any future tire change will be done by a certified Zero dealer or myself I guess.

[ZeroPointZero]

EE's get paid that much? I'm in the wrong field. How about we look for IT certifications and mechanical skills?

No, they don't....  But when you go in for work that's how much you'll get charged because engineers do make a lot more than a mechanic.  When you go into a shop and they want $60 or more per hour to work on your bike that mechanic isn't making $60 per hour either....You are also paying for overhead, management and profit.

I think for the most part Zero has the right approach by having tech training for dealers.  My dealer sent two of his mechanics for training last year.  The thing I'm not sure of is if Zero issues a certification and requires that the mechanics be certified in order to pay the dealer to do the warranty work.  If they don't, they should.

I think the problem, in addition to some of those mentioned with all warranty work in general, is that Zero is just understaffed in the customer service department relative to the number of issues these bikes have.  They could fix that with better quality control and/or just hire more people.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Ah yes, the local stealership... the only way I correspond with them anymore is via email with every zero rep CC'd that I know about.  Otherwise I get no response at all.  I don't bother calling them up anymore, as they are too busy working on carburetors for a royal enfield to deal with my pesky warranty issues....