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[Manzanita]

So I have a 2014 Zero S with power tank and my on-board charger has failed. The dealer service dept (Elk Grove Powersports) is saying to replace it out of warranty is about $800 for the charger and about $400 labor = $1200 total. I just gave them a verbal go-ahead today and they will order the charger, but what are my other options?

Calex will not directly sell the on-board charger to Zero owners and told me to contact Zero, who told me to bring it to an authorized dealer. I suppose I could order the charger through the dealer and install it myself to save $400. But could I also just install some sort of aftermarket charger (off-board or add-on) instead of the on-board charger? Or do the higher power off-board chargers depend on the on-board charger being there as well?

What about non-OEM replacement of the on-board charger with something of the same specs (assuming it would be cheaper on ebay or online)... has that been done? Is that possible?

Thanks,

-Alan
 

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

There's a sketch of a replacement procedure on the wiki (http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Charger) but no answers on using a different model. The 2013's 2s2p Meanwell arrangement is probably acceptable, but you'd have to work out how to get the charger and BMS to cooperate, which is as much about programming as wires and signaling.

The onboard charger is in a privileged position to enable the BMS to enter charging mode without requiring the contactor to be closed ahead of time. How this works is probably about CANbus programming, but I don't know more than that.

[Shadow]

You're welcome to try my SCv2 on it if you want to, we can pull it off my bike and see if it charges yours. I'm in Truckee CA approximately... I think what has been said means you would need to turn the ignition to "ON" and then connect the charging inputs, after which you could turn off the key and charging will continue.

[Manzanita]

@Shadow, thanks for the offer... from what Brian is saying it sounds like the onboard charger is necessary for external charging to work, right?

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

@Shadow, thanks for the offer... from what Brian is saying it sounds like the onboard charger is necessary for external charging to work, right?

It's not, as long as you're willing and able to key the bike on and get the contactor to shut every time you want to charge.

[Kocho]

Shouldn't the external charger be able to throttle down to something way under 1A current at the end of the charge to allow the BMS to equalize? Can the SC do that?

@Shadow, thanks for the offer... from what Brian is saying it sounds like the onboard charger is necessary for external charging to work, right?

It's not, as long as you're willing and able to key the bike on and get the contactor to shut every time you want to charge.

[Skidz]

Any charger should taper current down, because the maximum full charge is around 116 volts. Once that voltage is reached, a LiPo charger *should* decrease current to keep the voltage at that maximum level, so at 100% SOC the charger would essentially stop charging... So any charger capable of constant current/constant voltage should suffice.

[Kocho]

Keyword, "should". Superchargers for the Zero are not necessarily designed to do that, as in the general case they are intended to work in tandem with the on-board charger and could potentially disconnect themselves before the max voltage of the stock chargger is reached. My question was to clarify the SC behavior in this regards.

Does the SC behave like a "proper" CC/CV charger for the Zero that is programmed to the correct max voltage (or to a lower limit and lets the stock charger finish things up)? And, if it is programmed to the max voltage for the Zero, will it give the BMS the necessary time? Vs. are there time-limits, which could conceivably kick-in before the BMS finishes equalization?

Any charger should taper current down, because the maximum full charge is around 116 volts. Once that voltage is reached, a LiPo charger *should* decrease current to keep the voltage at that maximum level, so at 100% SOC the charger would essentially stop charging... So any charger capable of constant current/constant voltage should suffice.

[MrDude_1]

Its just a CC/CV power supply.

There is no special "taper down", of current as its just a byproduct of the voltage difference between the charger output and the batteries state of charge.

If the current is too high out of the charger, the charger lowers its voltage until its at the current limit.
so it appears constant... the voltage slowly rises until it can hit the output voltage.
then the current gets lower simply because the voltage difference is lower.

any CC/CV power supply will do the same thing, its not a special curve.

[Kocho]

Maybe I'm not asking the  question right... What is the CV limit on the SC? Is it the same voltage as that of the stock charger?

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Maybe I'm not asking the  question right... What is the CV limit on the SC? Is it the same voltage as that of the stock charger?

Yes. All chargers produced as products for the Zero platform are programmed with the same compatible CV setting.

I did remember/realize, though, that cel balancing is performed at the direction of the BMS specifically through the onboard charger signaling interface.

[Manzanita]

I did remember/realize, though, that cel balancing is performed at the direction of the BMS specifically through the onboard charger signaling interface.

So does this mean if you run an external charger only, cell balancing is not done? What is the impact of this?

[Cama]

Maybe I'm not asking the  question right... What is the CV limit on the SC? Is it the same voltage as that of the stock charger?

Yes. All chargers produced as products for the Zero platform are programmed with the same compatible CV setting.

I did remember/realize, though, that cel balancing is performed at the direction of the BMS specifically through the onboard charger signaling interface.

I guess only the onboard-charger does the balancing ...

That's why charging the fx/s-modules only with the delta-Q isnt the best of the lifetime for the powerpack. Also the chargetank for the D/S/R doesnt this job.

May we start a poll how many fx/s-user only charge with the delta-Q and how their powerpack goes?

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

I did remember/realize, though, that cel balancing is performed at the direction of the BMS specifically through the onboard charger signaling interface.

So does this mean if you run an external charger only, cell balancing is not done? What is the impact of this?

The identity and behavior of the charger itself does not seem to be relevant to cell balancing, but the BMS performs the balancing itself by applying currents to the interconnects that go into the battery at every point in the cell series stack, so this really means that whatever charger is used to perform this has to go through the bike's onboard charger interface.

Your pack capacity will degrade eventually without regular cell balancing. Presumably, regular charging at slow rates does some normalization, but it won't be ideal. I have no idea what the degradation rate might be like, but we've seen stories of riders with bikes cutting back power early, particularly with the 2014 cells which are somehow more vulnerable to cells discharging unevenly (probably by cell construction which seems to be the major change over the last few years from Farasis).

[Manzanita]

Okay, so here is another question: these charger failures are somewhat common, what is the failure mode, does anyone know? Could it be something I could repair on my own?

Maybe step one is to pull out the failed charger and crack it open and see if the failure mode is obvious.

Many many years ago I worked as an electronics technician... it took a PM from a member asking if I'd sell the broken charger to prod me into considering the possibility it could be fixed. I mean it could be failed diodes or rectifier, or other things that could be easily fixed, I suppose.

Considering the long-term degradation without cell balancing (using just an external charger) maybe that should be my first move.

Thank you all for your input, it has been a huge help!