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[Low On Cash]

I'm sorry, but color me skeptical.  I've been around long enough to know that just because it's on the internet, doesn't make it true.  I have no idea who you are or what your credentials are for making the statements you made above, BUT Zero's engineers, who DEFINITELY have "skin in the game" say to leave it plugged in when it's not being ridden, they're the ones warrantying the battery and they're the ones who'd have to deal with any potential lawsuits from battery failures, explosions, fires, etc. so they're the ones I'm going to listen to on this particular topic.

I've also seen a representative from Farasis (the company that manufactures the batteries Zero uses) back Zero's claims right here in this forum.  That's good enough for me.

JaimeC thanks for the reply, I fully understand you being skeptical.

Regarding your question of my credentials to dispute Zero or Farasis's charging recommendations, I have worked on a professional level with military and hobby lithium powered helicopters & drone aircraft since the early 90’s to include contracts for Martin Marietta Aerospace long before there was even a thought of Zero motorcycle.

Without being disrespectful to Zero and Farasis Company in any respect, they are “Dead Wrong” recommending their customers leave their lithium powered bikes on charge for up to months at a time un-attended. There is absolutely nothing to dispute, it is dangerous and not recommended. I explained in my original post their reasoning is to prevent warranty claims. In my years in the model industry, I have seen first hand many of my co-workers homes and business burnt to ground as a result of lithium cells. 

Thanks

[Kocho]

One more reason not to keep them plugged-in when not necessary and to monitor them during charging if at all possible. Although, if the cable or plug was at fault, it would matter only during full-current charging, where it could get hot (which it probably would not during top-up/equalization due to the very low current then).

Heck, even Tesla caught on fire during charging in Europe last year (I have not followed on why exactly). Not to mention other non-vehicle electrical devices catching fire when unattended. Stuff happens, if we can minimize the chance for it, I'm all for that...

I had heard there was a faulty plug and that this was NOT battery related.

[Starpower]

Here is the quote from the Farasis engineer:

"So, to prolong your battery life, you can do the exact opposite. Store the bike in a cool place with a stable temperature at low SOC.
 ~20% or so is fine for S/DS (one BMS sipping on 3-5 cellboxes) or 30-40% for the FX modules (one BMS per cellbox)"

You have the OP with extensive experience with li-ion and myself with over 30 years of full time work with various battery chemistries and 8 years first hand experience with li-ion and all 3 of us agree on this point. Admittedly, the engineer did say that plugged in all the time would likely not kill the battery within the warranty period.

Can we end this debate now?

[Low On Cash]

The Farasis engineers storage statement below is not correct for long term storage:

"~20% or so is fine for S/DS (one BMS sipping on 3-5 cellboxes) or 30-40% for the FX modules"

The reason this is in error; the average self-discharge rate of lithium of 2% to 3% per month, so in 6 months the cells would most likely discharge around 15%. If we stored the bike as he recommended with only a 20% and lose 15% charge, you could easily end up with a critical low SOC which could destroy the cells. 

To be safe, reduce the charge to 50% this way if we loss 15% from self-discharge, the pack would remain at a safe 35% SOC. 

[grmarks]

The Farasis engineers storage statement below is not correct for long term storage:

"~20% or so is fine for S/DS (one BMS sipping on 3-5 cellboxes) or 30-40% for the FX modules"

The reason this is in error; the average self-discharge rate of lithium of 2% to 3% per month, so in 6 months the cells would most likely discharge around 15%. If we stored the bike as he recommended with only a 20% and lose 15% charge, you could easily end up with a critical low SOC which could destroy the cells. 

To be safe, reduce the charge to 50% this way if we loss 15% from self-discharge, the pack would remain at a safe 35% SOC. 

From memory this was the ideal level of charge to prolong battery life, but needs constant monitoring. Not a recommendation to set and forget.
The farisis engineer also stated that batteries at full charge in a hot place is bad. Therefor if in winter the affect is much less. The heat speeds up the chemical degridation.
But in the worst case scenario it would still take over 5 years to damage the pack.
Some common sense is needed, if you live in a hot climate then you should do the extra effort to lower SOC for storage, if in a cold climate its not going to make much difference.
The engineer also stated that farisis cells have a more robust chemistry than the lipo cells used in RC models

[SteveInNC]

@Low On Cash, does the Iris app alert you if there's an anomaly happening? This thread has me fearful of the possibilities. I have my bike in a basement garage and I assume with a battery the size of the SR's it could start a raging fire that could engulf the house in no time flat. So a heads up that something is wrong could be a life saver. I don't leave my bike plugged in when we go out of town but, I do leave it plugged in most other times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Low On Cash]

@Low On Cash, does the Iris app alert you if there's an anomaly happening? This thread has me fearful of the possibilities. I have my bike in a basement garage and I assume with a battery the size of the SR's it could start a raging fire that could engulf the house in no time flat. So a heads up that something is wrong could be a life saver. I don't leave my bike plugged in when we go out of town but, I do leave it plugged in most other times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the reply - to my knowledge the Bluetooth App does not have any provisions to alert the owner, even if it did, being bluetooth instead of Wi-Fi the range would be very limited.

I highly recommended the Iris system since it allows you the ability to shut off or power the Zero from any location by your Iphone App.

Of course I would not recommend you leave the bike plugged in for storage reasons, but if you do charge in a remote area install the best smoke / Fire detector  you can find so you'll hopefully have some warning.

Thanks

[Richard230]

@Low On Cash, does the Iris app alert you if there's an anomaly happening? This thread has me fearful of the possibilities. I have my bike in a basement garage and I assume with a battery the size of the SR's it could start a raging fire that could engulf the house in no time flat. So a heads up that something is wrong could be a life saver. I don't leave my bike plugged in when we go out of town but, I do leave it plugged in most other times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If a Zero battery pack or charger has ever caught on fire, I sure haven't heard about it during the past 5 years that I have been visiting this forum.  And like I have said previously, my daughter has kept her 2012S plugged in all of the time, even during thunderstorms and flooding in her garage (just because she doesn't think about unplugging stuff (or recharging batteries, for that matter) and has yet to have an issue.  While I agree with you that unplugging your bike while you are away from your home for any length of time is a good idea, and something that I do, I doubt you should be worried about hover-board or Note 7 disasters. 

[Low On Cash]

At present - every Zero owner is risking the safety of their family and home on the integrity of the battery management circuit which has already shown it abilities to fail on numerous occasions.  I'm not trying to panic anyone into changing their charging habits - but only make them aware of the potential dangers of un-attended charging. Keep in mind, the Zero is not a hover board, phone or cigarette, if a 13kw pack goes up, more than likely it will take the structure with it.

I feel for safety reasons, Zero should immediately revise their recommendations regarding long-term Un-Attended battery storage. 

As an option - Zero could easily design and install an “Over Charge Prevention" feature in their charging circuit so in the unlikely event the processor become erratic, fails or locks up, a "normally open" relay would break the connection from the charger to the pack to prevent an over-charge state of the cells and a subsequent fire potential. Another protection feature could be a redundant SOC monitoring circuit to where if the battery reaches 100% SOC a normally open relay would open it from the charging circuit. 

Since there is a major liability for manufactures, my work in the drone industry entails rigid safety procedures concerning safe operation and charging of lithium, It took years of mistakes and many home and business fires before the model industry offered a safe product. Our policy is simple; “No Un-Attended Charging” period.  We urge modelers to be present during charging.
 
Since I consult for many manufactures and forced to deal with different manufactures of lithium packs, at our work place we have "safe areas" for the cells. Even at my home for my own models and electric bicycles, I installed a steel "Safe Room" in my garage for storage and charging of lithium cells. I mention this not for motorcycles, but to show there should always be concern for lithium cells.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

The evidence cited here is really mixed up - the HK police bike that caught fire was a 2012 model (as visible in the photo) using EIG cylindrical cells, not Farasis cells.

Ref. http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Unofficial_Service_Manual#Cell_Arrangement

The bulk of Farasis' market (seems like 80% from past references) lies in the industrial sector, for forklifts and small trucks in warehouse settings, and I'd bet that they operate with similar recommendations even if the duty cycle is more demanding.

Honestly, Low On Cash's pronouncements have been self-aggrandizing and arrogant, and should be regarded with skepticism. In this particular case, taking the argument at face value reveals an inadequate comparison and an example that they haven't fully understood or are using to mislead.

I don't care how right Low on Cash is about the drone situation, and do not care to convince him of anything, but wish to make sure that public visitors read this thread with a serious grain of salt and to make clear that we don't just buy a sketchy argument trotted out by someone convinced of their own credentials and downplaying others'.

[JaimeC]

Thanks, Brian.  Since I have it IN writing from the manufacturer in a legally binding document (the Owner's Manual) I am going to leave my Zero plugged in whenever it is not being ridden.  As I originally stated, Zero (and the Farasis engineers) have skin in the game, and if something should fail, THEY are the ones who will pay the price in lawsuits.  I am well aware that neither company would make their recommendations without EXHAUSTIVE research beforehand.  They can't afford to be wrong.

[Fred]

Zero could easily design and install an “Over Charge Prevention" feature in their charging circuit so in the unlikely event the processor become erratic, fails or locks up...

This is a standard feature of microcontroller programming called a watchdog. It's very unlikely that this isn't already in place.

[Doug S]

This is a standard feature of microcontroller programming called a watchdog. It's very unlikely that this isn't already in place.

Of course it is. Anybody with the slightest clue about electronics design would know that.

People have REALLY got to stop feeding this ignorant troll.

[JaimeC]

I don't think it's necessary to insult the OP.  He has his opinion and he's welcome to it.  I just think one needs to give it some good, hard, critical thought before jumping to conclusions, that's all.

[Fred]

People have REALLY got to stop feeding this ignorant troll.

The problem is that he occasionally come up with something interesting and informative. It'd be nice to encourage that rather than completely writing someone off.