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[Low On Cash]

Not following your reply Brian . . .

We're only talking about a linear regen feature here!

[Shadow]

We're only talking about a linear regen feature here!

What's some code got to do, got to do with it?

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Not following your reply Brian . . .

We're only talking about a linear regen feature here!

• You can't provide linear regen on a Zero without remapping how the throttle signal inputs to the Sevcon. You might want or need to provide an additional signal input, which requires skills in crimping and inserting wires into the Sevcon controller, which is a little more specialized than you'd suppose.
• Zero makes their own version of the Sevcon firmware; you'd have to binary patch the code in addition to patching the configuration settings. Developing a binary patch without source access is not going to be easy/cheap or reliable. The binary patch would also vary a bit per model/year.
• Applying the customization requires Sevcon cables and Zero's cables at the customer's site, or getting the dealer to do it (very unlikely outside of maybe two or three dealers in the world). In the 2017 world, there's a slight possibility of piggybacking on Zero's mobile app update arrangement, but this is a reverse engineering effort on top of the original effort.
• Zero firmware updates would often erase the customization and invalidate the way the customization works, requiring it to be re-developed after every Zero firmware update.
• These patches would invalidate your warrantee for anything related to the powertrain.
• The market for Zero owners willing to try this is maybe a few hundred, each willing to pay, sure $100-200, but that's not a lot of money to fund the development and maintenance costs (the author has to spend more hours upgrading the software per Zero firmware update, and will all of those customers want to pay again? Unlikely).

If it sounds like I'm making stuff up, I'll reveal that I had a reverse mode installed on my Zero, but it doesn't quite work right and someone's looking into it. This stuff does not just happen repeatably or affordably because one wishes it.

[Fred]

Exactly, Brian. Just a little bit of software. The ones and zeroes are even right there already, just not in the right order. ;-)

[Low On Cash]

Not following your reply Brian . . .

We're only talking about a linear regen feature here!

• You can't provide linear regen on a Zero without remapping how the throttle signal inputs to the Sevcon. You might want or need to provide an additional signal input, which requires skills in crimping and inserting wires into the Sevcon controller, which is a little more specialized than you'd suppose.
• Zero makes their own version of the Sevcon firmware; you'd have to binary patch the code in addition to patching the configuration settings. Developing a binary patch without source access is not going to be easy/cheap or reliable. The binary patch would also vary a bit per model/year.
• Applying the customization requires Sevcon cables and Zero's cables at the customer's site, or getting the dealer to do it (very unlikely outside of maybe two or three dealers in the world). In the 2017 world, there's a slight possibility of piggybacking on Zero's mobile app update arrangement, but this is a reverse engineering effort on top of the original effort.
• Zero firmware updates would often erase the customization and invalidate the way the customization works, requiring it to be re-developed after every Zero firmware update.
• These patches would invalidate your warrantee for anything related to the powertrain.
• The market for Zero owners willing to try this is maybe a few hundred, each willing to pay, sure $100-200, but that's not a lot of money to fund the development and maintenance costs (the author has to spend more hours upgrading the software per Zero firmware update, and will all of those customers want to pay again? Unlikely).

If it sounds like I'm making stuff up, I'll reveal that I had a reverse mode installed on my Zero, but it doesn't quite work right and someone's looking into it. This stuff does not just happen repeatably or affordably because one wishes it.

Brian,

Regretfully - You are 100% "incorrect" again!

There is no re-wiring and crimping wires, or changing any mechanical aspects of the bike what so ever.  It's all accomplished with lines of code. The regen is already there and fully adjustable which is proven by the fact you can control regen it to a degree with your smartphone. Making the Regen linear would be a simple as programing the degree (%) of Regen to a proportional position of the throttle, so instead of dropping to full regen at an instant, it would look at the throttle position and increment it in a proportional manner.

As I mentioned in my previous post, all the modifications of the BMW I3 electric was strictly software - a simple plug and play procedure, which also had the capability so when you re-installed the software it would put the system back to its original status for warranty reasons.

Regards!

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Well, I'm glad we have someone who knows everything to tell us how things work. Good job! Have a great holiday.

[Low On Cash]

Well, I'm glad we have someone who knows everything to tell us how things work. Good job! Have a great holiday.

Merry Christmas to you as well Brian!

[Fred]

Making the Regen linear would be a simple as programing the degree (%) of Regen to a proportional position of the throttle, so instead of dropping to full regen at an instant, it would look at the throttle position and increment it in a proportional manner.

Awesome news! I'd be happy to beta test that for you. When do you think you'll be finished?

[Low On Cash]

I code for a living and do embedded programming as a hobby. It's amazing how people say "it's just a little bit of software" despite not having any idea what effort that requires or how it's done. If it's easy - give it a try yourself.

The main thing with all these possible software features is cost/benefit. It costs to redesign and manufacture PCBs. It costs to design, write and test firmware (especially if a bug could kill a customer). How does that cost compare to the net profit on any extra bikes you might sell?

You should do some code - the guy who did the I3 charged $100 and sold thousands of the fix's

That's an absurd suggestion, and shows that you have completely failed to grasp what he's trying to say.

Thanks for the reply - You mean you failed to grasp it right ?

[Shadow]

So... are there examples of open source EV control to build this idea on?

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

So... are there examples of open source EV control to build this idea on?

There are open-source EV DIY platforms: http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Product_Hacking#Cars

But I haven't run across anything like that specifically. Basically, it rounds up to generic firmware hacking, and there are open source toolkits for debugging and patching embedded binaries, but they're not usually made for customizing vehicles so they may not have the kind of stability desired.

There's literally a how-to for a linear regen lever, by the way:
http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4357.0
Indexed on the wiki here:
http://zeromanual.com/index.php/Advanced_Modifications#Left_Hand_Variable_Regen_Lever

It's not something that's been replicated publicly. Honestly, the main problem is that everyone wants something different out of this kind of feature; the OP of that procedure is a motorcycle racer so they wanted a lot of performance and control. Others want the Vectrix style of regen-using throttle which is convenient but requires more extensive rework to implement.

All of this is clouded by the misconception (repeated here) that what the app does is equivalent to variable regen, but it is not - it's changing a static numeric setting and getting the throttle or an analog lever to work dynamically is an entirely different task that requires bypassing a lot of Zero's arrangements.

The wiki links to the Sevcon documentation which I've been through. This can be done, but it's a little complicated and is best done with Sevcon's software which has become locked down in the last few years, and the cables which are a little easier to acquire but are not cheap. Anyway, the point is that implementing this feature requires the dedication of a racing team or a dealership.

[Low On Cash]

The mod does not have to be perfect - anything other than the "On & Off" switch it has now would be a vast improvement. I dialed up full regen and braking on my custom program but shortly after changed it because it was just too abrupt when letting off the throttle.

I sure not a programmer but I would "Guess?" it might be accomplished in just the phone app if a guy was sharp.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

The app can't do it - bluetooth messages cannot be reliably sent and responded to quickly enough or reliably enough to get the desired effect. I'm not guessing and I don't have to guess (I've done a preliminary bluetooth sniffing session on the app and wish I had more time, but the basic gist is that the messages are not meant to be sent that fast and bluetooth isn't reliable anyway).

The MBB isn't involved with the throttle signal for exactly this reason, and the MBB is the only thing the app talks to. The MBB can change the Sevcon settings via CAN bus messages, but the refresh rate on that is about a few seconds at best for the full round trip, and it is not accessing Sevcon's variable regen feature.

[Low On Cash]

The app can't do it - bluetooth messages cannot be reliably sent and responded to quickly enough or reliably enough to get the desired effect. I'm not guessing and I don't have to guess (I've done a preliminary bluetooth sniffing session on the app and wish I had more time, but the basic gist is that the messages are not meant to be sent that fast and bluetooth isn't reliable anyway).

The MBB isn't involved with the throttle signal for exactly this reason, and the MBB is the only thing the app talks to. The MBB can change the Sevcon settings via CAN bus messages, but the refresh rate on that is about a few seconds at best for the full round trip, and it is not accessing Sevcon's variable regen feature.

Brian,

I just wanted to make sure you understand how the custom program in our App works - The Zero does not depend on the App nor the Bluetooth link to operate!

Once the custom program (or perhaps linear brake program) is uploaded to the Zero's processor, the App has finished its job. When the bike is running, the operation of the phone App, its settings and Bluetooth link have absolutely nothing what so ever to do with the processors operation. The phone App and its Bluetooth link is only a source to alter the operation routine when stopped and not control it.

For this same reason if the phone app was modified for regen, it would then have the capability to alter the Zero's code to follow a protocol to apply regen according to the throttles position to make the regen linear and not abrupt as it presently is.

I also feel that in due time, Zero will incorporate this feature in all their models.

Regards - Mike

 

[Kocho]

I lost patience reading the last few posts, so forgive me if it was already mentioned, but to have a variable regen we need a variable input to the regen: we need a way to sense how much brake is applied. That's hardware, which the bike does not have.

On the other hand, to have a gradual regen level increase, meaning it would kickoff smoothly and increase to whatever max level the user sets and stay there for as long as the brake is applied (or whatever the conditions to start regening), should have been implemented as a standard. Arguments that it is a hard thing to do for the software developers at Sevcon or Zero I think don't hold water - if the controller has the capability, the programming would be trivial. They could have added a second parameter: how quickly the regen ramps-up from 0 to max (the other parameter being the "max" itself).

Sure, custom-programming a closed, proprietary system is not easy. But the programming of said system to do gradual reven, when done by the creators of it, shouldn't be rocket science, provided the hardware is there to support it.