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[Kocho]

And, unlike range estimates, 0-60mph times are easy to check and repeatable ...

Zero has done an amazing job in detailing the range data, it seems to be very accurate.
It's just disappointing to see that the accuracy isn't applied to all the specs.

[ctrlburn]

When I read or hear about not finding the manufacturer's 0-60 times.

I have been surprised how many riders have never shifted with their left hand doing 0-60 or quarter mile.
("Yes" I grew up before speed shifters, and "Yes" I mean grabbing the foot shifter)

So I'll share some aged (and maybe not relevant anymore) drag racing tips, some came from my dad. Some may be heresy.

Preloading drivetrain using brakes and throttle prior to start.
The first few time you try this - it should scare the sh*t out of you. The bike might leave without you.

Holding handbars for dear life to stay on or digging into footpegs? 
Using the handlebars to hang on lifts the front.
Lowering your weight to below the drive will lessen lift, lower profile is less drag.

Tucking to avoid drag - legs on seat behind or over tail lights (as speed increases)?
Deep tight tucking - steer by the edge of the track. make every effort to cut drag.
Sure you can't shift with the left... but where in the drag profile is that arm?

Lower profile by compressing suspension with cargo straps.
Pull that front fork down and lock it.

Humidity? Headwind? Temperature? Tire Pressure? Mirrors?

Racing times can also improve by running with less oil... ok that doesn't apply.

How accurate is measurement? Speedo's are optimistic and may have lag.

I'm not saying we can find a missing second. 

But until we know optimized technique is in use we should take every shortcomer with a grain of salt.

At the risk being being labelled a Zero Apologist, and it would be an honor to join Terry in the moniker...

The US government doesn't have a standard for how 0-60mph is measured. (unlike MPG)
      Lightest rider taking a running start?  Could be... the sky is the limit.

(Zero actually has a different rated range in Europe than USA, because these nations measure range differently. Chances are neither is exactly how or where you ride.) (Corrected see below)

So 0-60mph doesn't mean what we think it means, and I'm not surprised we can't get there. Don't obsess with hitting it, but just use to to compare to other's 0-60 times I probably can't hit either.

[Richard230]

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Zero's 0-60 times were obtained on their dyno and not on a drag strip.   

[protomech]

(Zero actually has a different rated range in Europe than USA, because these nations measure range differently. Chances are neither is exactly how or where you ride.)

Where do you see that?

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/de/zero-s-specs

Shows 317 km in city riding, 158 km in highway 113 km/h (70 mph) riding.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php

Same thing shown on the US site.

[ctrlburn]

(Zero actually has a different rated range in Europe than USA, because these nations measure range differently. Chances are neither is exactly how or where you ride.)

Where do you see that?

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/de/zero-s-specs

Shows 317 km in city riding, 158 km in highway 113 km/h (70 mph) riding.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-s/specs.php

Same thing shown on the US site.

Different measurement standards for US and Europe - would have a different result in Europe.


http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100055_2016-nissan-leaf-range-107-or-155-miles-why-test-cycles-can-be-deceptive


And the test procedures used by the New European Driving Cycle are both shorter and slower than the EPA's procedures.

The EPA's city test is 31 minutes long, for example, while the European "Urban" test is 13 minutes long.

NEDC's "Extra urban" test takes 6 minutes, 40 seconds; the equivalent EPA highway test is 12 minutes, 45 seconds.

Reflecting differing traffic conditions between centuries-old European cities and sprawling post-war suburbia in the U.S., speeds are different too.

During that 13-minute NEDC urban test, the highest speed attained barely exceeds 30 mph, and that rate is maintained for a mere 12 seconds.

The rest of the test is made up of slow acceleration and deceleration, while more than 2 minutes is spent at a standstill.

By comparison, the EPA's city test occasionally reaches almost 60 mph, while the rest of it is spent accelerating up to 30 mph and then returning to a dead stop--and repeating--for true stop-start driving that's much harder on efficiency.

It's the same with highway testing--not only are the EPA's tests longer, but cars spend much more time at greater speeds.

The basic highway test cycle still only tops out at an unrealistic 60 mph, and averages only 48 mph, so it's not representative of real-world driving today.

The EPA also takes into account extra variability, such as 'High Speed', 'Air Conditioner,'and 'Cold Temperature' tests, to adjust the city and highway efficiency posted on every new car's window sticker to keep it relevant to real-world use.

That all adds up to significant differences between U.S. range ratings for electric cars and those found on identical cars in Europe.

U.S. combined range ratings are generally considered accurate for electric cars operated in temperate climates, where cabin heating isn't required.

[protomech]

Zero tests to neither the EPA 5-cycle standard nor the NEDRA standard. They test to the MIC standard (which they helped develop, and the city component is based on the EPA UDDS) and as far as I know report the same numbers everywhere.

[ctrlburn]

Zero tests to neither the EPA 5-cycle standard nor the NEDRA standard. They test to the MIC standard (which they helped develop, and the city component is based on the EPA UDDS) and as far as I know report the same numbers everywhere.

Cool thanks. I might have to be reminded a couple times - I've been used to the double standard as status quo for ages.

Point on elusive 0-60mph not having a standard I presume still holds?

[MajorMajor]

Preloading drivetrain using brakes and throttle prior to start.
The first few time you try this - it should scare the sh*t out of you. The bike might leave without you.

I really don't know if this is relevant for electric engines. Presumably, this would help in a ICE bike which has very low torque in the low RPM range.

The other problem I have with this is that my FXS already loses traction when I gun it.

Actually the biggest problem is that the early acceleration seems to be very limited and it only really accelerates hard after reaching a certain minimum speed.

It's like at 30 kph the I get full power and that's when the rear wheel breaks loose.

How accurate is measurement? Speedo's are optimistic and may have lag.

I'm not saying we can find a missing second. 

But until we know optimized technique is in use we should take every shortcomer with a grain of salt.

The speedo is a good point, it could be way off. Maybe I'm hitting 100 before I realize it.

Only problem I have with all of this is that 400cc scooters seem to be giving me a run for my money...

[laramie LC4]

Actually the biggest problem is that the early acceleration seems to be very limited and it only really accelerates hard after reaching a certain minimum speed.

i have the same opinion. it's completely flat if your sitting on the line, then whack it open. it takes a few 10th's to catch, then another couple before it really starts to go. i've messed around with a couple diff techniques yielding varying results, but one thing the book says NOT to do is....pre-load the engine and driveline before launch using the brakes. they say this can cause damage to the motor. not sure what but, if you believes the owners manual i would caution against.

maybe one of the brains can explain the pre-loading problem?

laters,

laramie 

[Kocho]

If you hold the brake and twist the throttle without the bike moving, the motor will experience the maximum current that the controller will throw at it and 100% of that current will turn into heat. We know the motors overheat when ridden hard at high speeds/accelerations and yet in those conditions they drat no more current than when "stalled", only part of that current generates heat (the rest of it generates "motion" and propels you forward), plus there is air cooling from the wind.

When stalled, there is little cooling and all the current turns into heat. So the motor overheats/gets damaged. For a split second, probably not a problem - after all, that's what you do every time you go from a stop. But holding it there with there with the brake for more than a moment is bad.

Plus, I doubt it will generate more current this way vs. just turning the throttle quickly and taking off. You are not building RPM like with a bike with a clutch, so I'm not even sure if you can "pre-load" a Zero this way for a quicker start. Has someone tried?

Actually the biggest problem is that the early acceleration seems to be very limited and it only really accelerates hard after reaching a certain minimum speed.

i have the same opinion. it's completely flat if your sitting on the line, then whack it open. it takes a few 10th's to catch, then another couple before it really starts to go. i've messed around with a couple diff techniques yielding varying results, but one thing the book says NOT to do is....pre-load the engine and driveline before launch using the brakes. they say this can cause damage to the motor. not sure what but, if you believes the owners manual i would caution against.

maybe one of the brains can explain the pre-loading problem?

laters,

laramie 

[KrazyEd]

I believe that I have pointed to this link before, but, it may shed some light on acceleration times.

http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/zero-0-60-mph-times/

[MajorMajor]

I believe that I have pointed to this link before, but, it may shed some light on acceleration times.

http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/zero-0-60-mph-times/

Am I missing something? Those numbers appear to be identical to the Zero website numbers.
They just copied them over...

[Richard230]

I believe that I have pointed to this link before, but, it may shed some light on acceleration times.

http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/zero-0-60-mph-times/

Am I missing something? Those numbers appear to be identical to the Zero website numbers.
They just copied them over...

I don't think you are missing anything.....   

[domingo3]

Plus, I doubt it will generate more current this way vs. just turning the throttle quickly and taking off. You are not building RPM like with a bike with a clutch, so I'm not even sure if you can "pre-load" a Zero this way for a quicker start. Has someone tried?

Tried "preloading" this afternoon on my FXS.  You can see torque build up if you twist the throttle with the brake applied.  I don't know that it would have an effect vs just twisting the throttle full open though.  With enough throttle application, I could push the front wheel with the brakes applied.  I didn't make too many attempts, so maybe there's a technique that could give some small advantage, but as others have pointed out, the initial motor response feels like it's muted until after the bike gets rolling.

If anyone read my previous response where I said I couldn't sense torque developing, I deleted it, since I was mistaken.

[ctrlburn]

Listed not as examples of things to try - but listed as things I'm not hearing anyone include in their preparations to optimize their 0-60 attempts. 

"Yes" it is bad for the motor.
"Yes" it is potentially dangerous. 
"Yes" improvements may be marginal.
"Yes" these are decades old tips.

Simply held intent if it changes shape while accelerating it is wasting energy. That is springs, sinew and even the tension within the chassis.  So pre-loading, pre-compressing and locking in place unifies force to the singular task of launching down the road.

Overall you've got to do one more crazy thing than the other guy to be faster.

There is more than just globbing the throttle to 100% and counting the seconds.  Maybe there shouldn't be.

Even a properly trained - modern motorcycle drag racer who employs tried and true and iterated methods may still come up short...  because we don't know how it was measured to replicate.

I haven't been challenged at the lights in decades.