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Author Topic: Bad news for UK riders  (Read 1528 times)

alexanderfoti

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Bad news for UK riders
« on: July 08, 2016, 01:12:25 AM »

Hi all

Ecotrcity are the most ubiquitous charge points in the UK, with at least one of their charge points being made available at nearly every services on the UK motorway network.

Up until today, there had been no charge to use these charge points, this will change from the end of July.

To use one of these charge points, there is now a flat charge of £5 per 20 minutes (!!!!!)

I understand having to charge for power, but that rate is ridiculous. Its also pointless for those of us that use slow charging, as a 20 minute top up at 1.2kw is a waste of time (especially at £5!) That's considerably more pricey than even a large engined ICE bike.

What a load of...
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Bad news for UK riders
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2016, 02:51:12 AM »

Is it? Really? I don't think so.

For a start, how often have you used an Ecotricity charger for your bike? I haven't and I don't think I could with my on-board charger. Maybe I could if I had a Mennekes to kettle lead adapter, but what would be the point? I'd be sat at the service station for hours in order to get enough charge just get to the next service station!

With a charge tank I'd still be there for a couple of hours to get another sixty miles of range or so. A couple of Elcons and I'd be ready to roll in about an hour and a half, more with a current bike and even more with a power tank.  I think the Mennekes level 2 are limited to about 7kW. I may be wrong and hope I am.

Getting down to brass tacks, even the mighty Diginow Super Charger will still cost you £15 for a full charge.  Meanwhile your average electric car will be able to charge from 20-80% in 20 minutes. That includes the new Nissan Leaf and the Kia Soul EV. It's a little over 16.5kWh of juice, which is around £2.20 worth, depending on your domestic tariff. I don't think that's unreasonable for the convenience of being able to fast charge at a service station.

For any electric bikers that are bothered by this, the solution is simple: switch to Ecotricity for your electrons and gas and the fast chargers remain free.  Quite frankly you should all be doing that anyway as they buy their energy from renewable sources and invest in new wind and solar farms. They also have a strict anti fracking policy for gas.

The revenue from the fast chargers will help Ecotricity to expand their network so everyone is a winner. You couldn't possibly expect it to remain free for ever, could you?

Please don't be negative about this. It's the healthy thing to do.
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alexanderfoti

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Re: Bad news for UK riders
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2016, 03:00:48 AM »

I disagree.

With a my home made "fast charger", I can pull a full charge in 1 hour and 45 minutes on a ZF13.0 pack. They are 44KW charge points as well, so I can pull a total of 9.3KW with a menenkes plug. Charge tank is pointless in the UK and the diginow is too expensive compared to the home made alternative (imo)

If I am using the motorway network to get around, then its the only choice I have, that's the biggest issue here. There are plenty of other chargers available, but ecotricity have monopolised the motorway charging market.

£15 for £1.44 of energy isn't fair (based on my home rate) and is more money to run than the Ice bike I have.

Their energy tariff for my area is more than twice the rate I am using now, so switching to them isn't viable.

EDIT: granted this isnt the "end of the world" but if you have just invested £3000 on a diginow charger, to be able to use motorways more efficiently, then this is a big blow.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 03:31:23 AM by alexanderfoti »
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Bad news for UK riders
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2016, 04:24:54 AM »

It's fine to disagree, I actually like a bit of a debate.

If my maths is correct, do I take it you're paying only 6.5p per kWh? That's a bargain! Are you on a dual tariff or something?

If you have a link to details of your home made charger, I'd be grateful.

I think they've chosen to charge in twenty minute segments in order to encourage people to move on and not hog a charger for an hour or so. They want as many people to use them as possible as quickly as possible. The cost of the electricity is small to them in comparison to the cost of installation and maintenance.

I suppose this is another case of motorcyclists taking a hit for something that's designed for cars to use. If we could charge to 80% or so in 20 minutes, it wouldn't be so bad. The trouble is that it takes at least three times that long even with the best charger on the market.

Let's hope that Farasis certify their cells for a C2 charge rate soon. The way forward has to be active cooling for the battery pack to enable long distance riding combined with frequent fast charging.
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alexanderfoti

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Re: Bad news for UK riders
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2016, 12:27:43 AM »

Indeed, its always good to spark a discussion. Apologies if I came across as hostile. Its not meant in that way.

Erm My maths may be off, as its 8.73ppkwh.
I am in the middle of doing the write up for the charger, as soon as Im finished I will post up a link.

I really wouldn't mind about the 20 minute segment, its more the amount they are charging. They should charge per kwh like many other pay charge points do.
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mrwilsn

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Re: Bad news for UK riders
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2016, 03:18:32 AM »

Indeed, its always good to spark a discussion. Apologies if I came across as hostile. Its not meant in that way.

Erm My maths may be off, as its 8.73ppkwh.
I am in the middle of doing the write up for the charger, as soon as Im finished I will post up a link.

I really wouldn't mind about the 20 minute segment, its more the amount they are charging. They should charge per kwh like many other pay charge points do.
Are you suggesting a small universal fee per 20 minutes of use plus a fee per kWh used?  Remember...they are trying to solve the problem of people who plug in and then stay parked long after they are charged up. If you don't charge a time based fee and just charge per kWh you haven't solved the problem.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

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Doug S

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Re: Bad news for UK riders
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2016, 03:41:35 AM »

Here in the states, they're installing new parking meters which have cameras in them. If the meter runs out and you're still parked there, it snaps a photo of your license plate and you're pleasantly surprised a few days later when a parking ticket arrives for you in the mail.

I can imagine the frustration of someone hogging the parking space near the charger, but there's got to be a good technological solution to that. Give the owner a few minutes to move his vehicle after it's done charging or slap a fine on him.

I've never charged at a public charging station, though hopefully I'll start soon, when my Diginow charger arrives. Don't those charging stations send you a text or an email when your vehicle stops charging?
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ultrarnr

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Re: Bad news for UK riders
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2016, 06:14:25 AM »

Time based charging is really the better way to go. I know a place that charges a dollar an hour for the first four hours and then about 20 dollars an hour after that. This is the result of a Tesla owner who plugged in and didn't come back for four days! The owner of the store who had the system installed had to go elsewhere to charge his EV during that period. In some areas EV ownership will outgrow the charging infrastructure and charging that is time based is the only way to prevent people from staying plugged in long after they have finished charging.
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Bad news for UK riders
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2016, 01:06:20 PM »

We don't know whether it's just a 20 minute session or rolling 20 minutes. I hope it's the latter, so that drivers have an incentive to take the minimum charge they need, unplug and leave before it costs them another fiver.

I'm disappointed with how many people that are upset by this news. All they need to do is switch to Ecotricity and they'll also get a good feeling about helping to save the planet.

Apparently four Nissan Leaf orders were cancelled on the back of this news! It just goes to show how important financial incentives are to people. Now where is that subsidy for electric bikes again...?
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alexanderfoti

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Re: Bad news for UK riders
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2016, 03:53:51 PM »


I'm disappointed with how many people that are upset by this news. All they need to do is switch to Ecotricity and they'll also get a good feeling about helping to save the planet.


If I can afford to double my gas and electric bill, I would switch to them. The cost saving for not having to pay the £5 at the charge point doesn't outweigh my double bill (unless I severely ramp up the use of charge points)
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Bad news for UK riders
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2016, 07:45:06 PM »

EV versus ICE running costs

I hear you Alex, it seems counter intuitive to pay more for your electricity and gas than is strictly necessary. However, I can't help wondering why people who are price sensitive to their energy costs would own an electric vehicle. The cost of the batteries place such a premium on the cost of an EV that for all but the commuter and taxi driver, the economics don't make sense.

I'm almost certainly going to lease a Kia Soul EV for a couple of years. It's a slightly bonkers thing to do because the petrol and diesel versions are so much cheaper.  Literally by thousands of pounds.

The average mileage per driver is just under 8,000 a year in the UK. It's easy to buy a car that does 50mpg on either petrol or diesel. If you're paying £1.15 per litre, you're only paying around £820/yr for fuel.

If memory serves, Ecotricity charge me 13.6p per kWh.  Is it fair to say that a Leaf or  Soul will go 60 miles on 20kWh of electricity? That's only £363 of electricity at Ecotricity prices. The average household consumed 4kWh per day last year. That's £199, if we ignore standing charges. So assuming you charge your car exclusively at home, your total electricity bill is £562/yr. At the very most you'll save £280 a year going with an energy company that burns whatever it can to make electricity. Is it worth it?

Let's halve the £363 spent on electricity for driving to £182. Compared to diesel you'd be saving £638/yr on fuel. The electric Soul EV costs £25,500 new versus a petrol with a DCT automatic costing £18,500. It'll take ten years to break even! Maybe less taking servicing into account, but still, who will want a Leaf or Soul in three years time when the Tesla Model 3 is available with a 200 mile range? Not to mention all the competition from the big car manufacturers that are pulling out all the stops at the moment so they don't get left behind.

So there must be another reason to own an electric car at the moment. I think the pleasure of driving one is a good place to start. I would also like to think that owning one now will encourage more people to make the leap. Financially you're setting yourself up for more expense. The depreciation alone will blow the above calculations out of the water. That's why I think leasing is sensible at the moment, or buying a three year old Leaf for £7,000.

It seems odd to me to go and spend all that extra money to run an electric vehicle for environmental reasons and then not be willing to spend just a little bit more on your electricity to ensure that it comes from sustainable sources. Hypocritical even!

Please note that I've used very conservative estimates. I don't know your circumstances Alex and that last comment isn't aimed at you specifically.
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alexanderfoti

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Re: Bad news for UK riders
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2016, 01:20:35 AM »

Agreed, from a purely cost saving perspective, it makes no sense.

Especially going from a NC700 DCT, which has achieved a lifetime average for me of 65mpg, to a £14,000 2016 SR. I have calculated the break even point for me. Its just shy of 10 years.

However, I own and run a IT business, and a portion of some of the servers run in my home office. These draw a fixed amount of electricity at all times. My electricity usage is higher than the average. If I switch to a more expensive provider, my bills will increase dramatically as a result (of course, non standard circumstances).

If I had different circumstances, I would seriously look at changing providers to ecotricity. It just bugs me that they now have a monopoly on all motorway charging points (with considerable help from government funding) and are now forcing these fees on people with no alternative.
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Bad news for UK riders
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2016, 08:34:02 PM »

Y'all need to redo your math, I believe its been changed to 30 mins for £6
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alexanderfoti

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Re: Bad news for UK riders
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2016, 08:54:45 PM »

Y'all need to redo your math, I believe its been changed to 30 mins for £6

So a £6 charge using my chargers nets 4.65KWH total usage in 3 minutes. vs 40p at home.
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Bad news for UK riders
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2016, 01:06:07 AM »

I honestly never thought that charging would be cheap, and the chargers have been priced to deter slow charging vehicles (aka Outlanders) to keep them clear for vehicles that rapid charge. Basically Dale pretty much outright said that he's trying to discourage slow charging PHEV's from using the network.

As we are slow charging EV's, basically we are *NOT* Electric Highways customers.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 01:11:20 AM by Justin Andrews »
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