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Author Topic: Zero 2017  (Read 46753 times)

clay.leihy

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #255 on: October 30, 2016, 06:09:54 AM »



6.5 battery I think is too small for most who commute on highways for more than 15 miles one way. I went to a place today that's only 25 or so miles away, but mostly highway, 75-80mph pretty much constant speed.

The thing is, I think, long commutes like that are not the norm. Throughout the world, people are moving back to the cities. Just look at the real estate market here in Denver. There will always be people travelling 25+ miles one way, but I can't see a vehicle manufacturer trying to make their entire fleet suitable for that kind of commute. They should go for a piece of the city commuter market if they want to compete. If I lived in the country, I would have vehicles suitable to the distances needed, but if I lived in the inner city I'd just rent something when I want to make a long trip. I think that if Zero only caters to long distance high speed riders, they'll be stuck in a niche market.

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Clay
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Say10 15FX 16FXS

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #256 on: October 30, 2016, 07:25:23 AM »

One day they'll build towers like Tesla built at Wardenclyffe all over and power will be transmitted wirelessly to the bike as you ride. No battery and unlimited range!!!

http://www.teslasciencecenter.org/wardenclyffe/



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grmarks

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #257 on: October 30, 2016, 07:42:13 AM »

I can see these 6.5 DS and maybe S having very limited sales. With less cells (more current draw per cell) the pack won't last as long either.
The FXS and DSR was a great move, if this is the new "great move" for this year I predict it will be a flop.
But lets not forget that we also got the IPM motor as well as the FXS and DSR last year. Lets hope there is more in the announcement than the lesser battery sizes.
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grmarks

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #258 on: October 30, 2016, 07:50:37 AM »

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/promotions/event.php?t=2170

Looks like someone screwed up. Demos listed are a new SR13.0, DS6.5 with charge tank, and FXS6.5. 

So no battery increase for 2017, but a new battery arrangement for at least the DS line. This would be a brick down, would it not? Makes me think they are trying to add flexibility to get model prices down by giving smaller pack options. I believe some one mentioned that possibility before...

In the past demo bikes have been previous years bikes, It might be the case here (just hoping it is, don't know) and badly worded form.
It says new (2016 or 2017)? The 2016 is the current new SR with maybe a 2017 6.5 DS thrown in?????

More wishful thinking than anything. 
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #259 on: October 30, 2016, 08:19:28 AM »

There is an out for the 6.5 that makes it less of a compromise, if I read between the lines correctly at the factory tour.

Also, the used Zero market is microscopic and sucks for the seller, so there's no reason for Zero to lean on existing customers to prop up the new sales goals.
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JaimeC

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #260 on: October 30, 2016, 04:53:05 PM »

Also, the used Zero market is microscopic and sucks for the seller, so there's no reason for Zero to lean on existing customers to prop up the new sales goals.

Probably about the same for a used PC... the technology changes VERY fast and it doesn't take long for the bike to become obsolete.  I knew that going in.  ;)
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NEW2elec

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #261 on: October 30, 2016, 07:59:31 PM »

Well I wouldn't quite say 13+ bikes are "obsolete" just not as attractive as 15/16's.  The issue for me is Zero making a 9.8 DS cuts into the market that would be looking at my 11.4 13MY DS. 
Making maybe $9,000 the TOP amount you could hope to get for one.  If everyone could only buy a new $13,000 13ZF DS mine might bring $10,500 or $11,000 which would make it much more likely that I would cough up the extra $3000 for the latest and greatest because I know how good they are.
If Zero dealers would give you $8000 on trade in and then could turn around and sell them at $10500 that would be a great no hassle deal for early adopters and they could "certify" the older bikes and give maybe a 6 month or year warranty.  At some point this will need to happen just like in the car market.
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mrwilsn

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #262 on: October 30, 2016, 10:36:43 PM »

The Zero team is too smart not to know exactly what they were doing when they led some of the most enthusiastic Zero owners through the factory floor in the midst of building 2017 bikes.  Before the tour started they gave very explicit instructions about not using a camera on the tour under penalty of being asked to immediately leave.  But that doesn't mean we don't all have eyes.  And to top it off, they even told everyone that 2017 bikes "may or may not be visible during the tour".  So they prepare us for the possibility that we might see a 2017 bike and then they walk us right past 2017 bikes...close enough to reach out and touch if they hadn't also told us not to touch anything  ;D .  Of course, they had complete control over what we would (and wouldn't) see when we saw the 2017 models.

So, with all that said, I can't completely rule out the possibility that it was all staged to mislead us into thinking there wouldn't be a battery improvement for 2017 thus making a battery capacity increase reveal more unexpected....but it seems highly unlikely.

So here is what I actually saw....

There were maybe 6-8 bikes on the assembly line in various stages of completion.  Every bike had an 8 1/2" x 11" sheet of blue paper hanging from the handle bars inside a see through slip case.  The blue tag hanging from every single one of the bikes had a LARGE number 17 on it....hmmm....wonder what that could mean.

Looking closer at these sheets and you could clearly see the model, battery configuration and color.  So I saw some blue tags with "DS13 Orange".  Also saw some blue tags with "DS6.5 Orange".  Looking at the monolith of the bikes with a blue tag with DS6.5 Orange I saw a ZF6.5 plate.  I also saw a blue tag with "DSR13 Graphite".  So it would appear black is gone (RIP) and graphite is in.  The bikes didn't have tanks on them yet but there was a rack off to the side with many tanks on it and I spotted the graphite....I look forward to seeing what it looks like on the bike in proper lighting.

Looking at Zero's own website for some perspective....

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/10-years/

I won't go all the way back to 2006 and I won't cover every detail of every change from year to year...just enough to establish a pattern...

2012 - The year Z Force is born.  This is when zero started using pouch cells (ZF9) instead of cylindrical cells.

2013 - Zero bumps to present day voltages (102V nominal, 116V max).  They are still using the same pouch cells as in 2012 (25Ah) but the raise in voltage means the ZF9 turns into a ZF11.4.  This is also the year they introduced the Zero designed motors.

2014 - Zero still uses 25Ah cells (yep....3 years in a row) and since the voltage also stays the same it means a return of the ZF11.4. BUT....this is of course the year of a new high amp controller (hello SEVCON size 6) and they use high temp magnets in the motor to debut the Zero SR.

2015 - Zero bumps to the 27Ah cells to make a ZF12.5 but the motor and controller remain unchanged.  This is the year of brakes, tires, wheels and suspension.  I think this is Terry's favorite year ;) OK....probably every year ends up being his new favorite (and 2017 is not likely to be an exception) but 2015+ is the cut off that he unashamedly encourages everyone to move towards.

2016 - Zero bumps to the 29Ah cells to make a ZF13 and they debut the IPM motor.  They also bring the size 6 controller to the DS to make a DSR and put street tires on the FX to make the FXS supermoto.  And of course this is also the year of the charge tank.

Which brings us to 2017 - Indications are that the ZF13 is back and a new ZF6.5 available for the S/DS.  For a while I considered the possibility that Zero was going to start using nominal capacity instead of max capacity for naming their battery packs...since the nominal voltage of a 36S pack would be about 116V (150V max) it would coincidentally mean that nominal capacity would be 13kWh....but that was just a combination of projecting my own desires and a refusal to accept the fact that the battery capacity wasn't increasing for 2017 (I'm over it).  The IPM was just introduced last year so with the exception of blessing the FX with an IPM, the motor probably won't change....maybe refinements but not a totally new design.

But I give it about a 0% chance that's the full story for 2017.  If it was, why not just announce at AIMExpo....or just tell everyone the specs at the Zero 10 year anniversary event?  The cost of floor space at EICMA has to be more than at AIMExpo.  It costs more to get everyone and the bikes to Italy.  Press coverage is more intense.  So, does anyone think they would put a bright expensive spot light on themselves if that was all they had to announce?  I think not.

So what is the pattern that we can pick out from all of this?  I think it's that Zero consistently improves the bikes year after year....unlike an ICE motorcycle OEM that can make essentially the exact same bike for several years.  To be fair, if you are building upon technology that has been in the mainstream getting better for over 100 years...why fix what isn't broke.  And the big OEMs will also take an approach of moving model to model rather than making changes across the lineup.  But Zero is advancing a technology that has been available for over 100 years but hasn't benefited from the constant iteration and improvement that comes with mass market adoption.  Instead, each year they have to pick the focus areas for each model and let the other areas remain unchanged or minimally changed.  Then the following year the focus area moves to one of the areas that wasn't changed or was minimally changed the previous year.  And repeat.

So what can all of this tell us about what the focus areas were for 2017? I have some ideas but let you draw your own conclusions for now.

So why did Zero let everyone who went on a factory tour see that the battery capacity wasn't changing for 2017?  I think it's very possible that it was basically a deliberate leak in order to give the die hards some time to get over the fact that range isn't increasing this year and move on to the exciting stuff that IS improving for 2017.  Was that the motivation?  I don't know.  But they certainly wouldn't be the first company to intentionally leak information about a soon to be released product for one reason or another.

As far as the practicality of a ZF6.5 S/DS....no doubt it's not a bike for everyone.  The range has to work for you or its an obvious non starter.  But it doesn't cost Zero that much to offer the configuration and brings down the entry price of the more commuter focused S/DS models.  I imagine the primary market is people that would potentially go for an FXS as a commuter because of the lower price point but want some storage and faster charging.  Even without a charge tank, an S/DS6.5 would have 1.3kW of onboard charging compared to the 650W you get on an FXS....so could be charged in half the time.  And there's no reason to believe the charge tank wouldn't be compatible with the S/DS6.5 which could get you charged up in about 1.5 hours....assuming the same 3.8kW max charge rate as is available on the 2016 bikes.

It reminds me of the way almost every single smart phone OEM continued to offer phones with only 16Gb memory long after most people considered 32Gb to be the minimum amount of storage needed for a smart phone.  But it allows them to say "starting at just..." even though they will immediately up sell the majority of customers to the higher memory options...paying extra for double the range is a lot easier sell than paying extra for a 33% increase as is the case going from ZF9.8 to ZF13.  However, you still have the lower price model for those who just can't afford or don't want to spend the money on the higher capacity battery.

I think the side affect is that people who buy an FXS gets narrowed down to just the people that are looking for that style of bike and the buyers who just went to the FXS for the lower price point migrate to the S/DS6.5.
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cheesymac47

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #263 on: October 30, 2016, 11:59:15 PM »

I am not usually good at predicting future events, so take this with a grain of salt.

The two biggest criticisms of electric vehicles are cost and range, and those are pretty related as trade offs.  There are folks who want to be able to do longer runs (me included), and folks who want a low cost efficient commuter (also me). The commuter folks don't need as much battery, but maybe the FX/S doesn't quite fit them. The lower capacity S/DS fits nicely, and will make it more affordable. Resell will suck no matter what.

What scares me (and others) about sinking the money into one of these bikes is finding it doesn't quite fit, battery wise. Or that my circumstances change, and it may no longer fit. Then I have to buy a new unit at significant outlay of cash, while also trying to sell my old unit at significant loss.

This doesn't set up as a customer friendly option.

What would be a better scenario is if I could buy additional capacity as I need it, and have faster charging for what capacity I have. A 6.5 S/DS would be pushing my range, but at work I have level 2 chargers all over, so said bike would easily charge during the days for the ride home (26 miles). Then when I am ready to take a foliage trip to North Carolina, buy in some additional capacity when I could afford it.

You know, kind if like the modular bricks in the FX/S.

What if this year's innovation was a pack layout change, such that the monolith was no more; that the capacity could go modular like the FX/S, but now in the S/DS lines? Perhaps even to the point that any 2017+ Zero can swap batteries out.

Want extended range on the lower price S/DS? Buy an add on pack. Perhaps with future cell development (though this is more out there of an idea), the pack format stays compatible, so later, denser packs can be an upgrade on your older units. Or a pack that is failing early can be replaced at dealerships. Future proofing the lines a little.
And, like the FX/S series, you can buy off board chargers for extra batteries if you want that option.

And, for Zero's benefit, a standardized physical brick size across their lines. Zero and their dealerships won't have to worry about multiple inventory items until denser packs come along.

It is probably a pipe dream, but one fed from the smaller spec DS to be shown at the event.




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Kocho

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #264 on: October 31, 2016, 12:07:12 AM »

An add-on fairing option will be very popular, I think. And it could be produced relatively cheaply, although ideally it should come with taller and farther ahead headlight to make it possible to get behind the screen instead on top of it when ducking... That would address highway range nicely.

LED headlight? Maybe, although if it costs Zero too much to get DOT certification we might continue with the halogens, which are fi e as far as I am concerned, except for the terrible heat they generate, which I'm afraid could lead to damage of the plastic headlight over time, especially if left on with the bike stationary without air cooling it.
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mrwilsn

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #265 on: October 31, 2016, 12:31:50 AM »

An add-on fairing option will be very popular, I think. And it could be produced relatively cheaply, although ideally it should come with taller and farther ahead headlight to make it possible to get behind the screen instead on top of it when ducking... That would address highway range nicely.

I'm not sure how cheap it would be for Zero to develop but definitely agree that they should do it.  Better aerodynamics is low hanging fruit that Zero has so far not decided to pick.  It seems a little bit like shooting yourself in the foot.  The number one request is more range, without a doubt.  Even if the fairing only increases range by 30% on the highway at 70 mph that would still get you over 100 miles for a ZF13 which would convince a LOT more people to take the plunge.

I just hope that when they do take the aero plunge they don't just offer new bikes with fairings but also offer the ability for existing owners to buy a fairing to bolt on their bikes.
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SM

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #266 on: October 31, 2016, 01:08:46 AM »

From what I heard the 2016 S 9.8 was the bike to buy with 50% more range than the NEW Zero S 6.5 for the same price.
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mrwilsn

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #267 on: October 31, 2016, 01:22:36 AM »

From what I heard the 2016 S 9.8 was the bike to buy with 50% more range than the NEW Zero S 6.5 for the same price.
A. You are assuming range is the only factor.  There could be other reasons to choose a 2017 Zero S ZF6.5 over a 2016 Zero S ZF9.8.

B. You are assuming the 2017 Zero S ZF6.5 will be priced the same as a 2016 Zero S ZF9.8.

C. Good luck finding a new or demo model 2016 Zero S ZF9.8 at this point. I doubt many if any dealers had ZF9.8 demo models and even though the 2017 bikes haven't been announced yet I don't think you can order a 2016 any more. So you would have to find a used bike and I doubt many owners are even close to being ready to sell yet.

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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #268 on: October 31, 2016, 02:44:49 AM »

I think the 6.5 is upgradable to the 13, and that that's the missing factor that makes this work.
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grmarks

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #269 on: October 31, 2016, 06:42:06 AM »

I think the 6.5 is upgradable to the 13, and that that's the missing factor that makes this work.

On one of the Zero web casts they stated that the "new" frame format (from 2012 or 2013 onwards) would stay the same so that a battery upgrade was possible. Old bikes could put in a new battery. So this would mean the 6.5 is upgradeable too. But it may mean taking out the old 6.5 monolith and putting in a new 9.8 or 13 monolith, not just adding 6.5 to what you have.
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