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[Skidz]

I sometimes fly model helicopters, and the electric ones fly a lot better since the switch from nimh to lipo a few years back. Since damage is a lot less with model aircraft you tend to see new tech early, especially with the Taiwanese and Chinese shops. They sell 'classic' lipo charging up to 4c and graphene that charges up to 15c, with a significant rise in energy density in the graphene cells. But to be honest, i've seen (and had ) my share of in-flight explosions... wouldn't want to have an on-road lipo fire, especially when you see where you're sitting

[mrwilsn]

This is the older Luke Workman video where he talks about solid state electrolytes and the weight benefits and improved safety and the (maybe) 10X energy density (starts about the 4 min mark).  I don't think Zero uses graphene yet as they still have the same pouch (liquid electrolyte I assume) cells (please no offense to you Mr Wilson I just don't see it mentioned anywhere).  It gets hard to get a full truthful answer out of them because they have to guard their "secret sauce" which I understand, hey its a business.

What?!?! How dare you! It's on the internet, I just wrote it there.  The internet is never wrong!

Haha...jk of course...no offense taken.

Yes, the current chemistry is still using liquid electrolyte.  Not sure if this is what you meant but using graphene does not (necessarily) mean replacing the liquid electrolyte.  I have definitely seen that video before.  The company Luke is talking about is actually Sakti3 (not Sakti5 as he says in the video).  He is definitely right about their stuff being exciting though.

For the most part coming up with a new battery chemistry is a matter of trial and error.  Smart engineers make educated guesses based on the engineering challenges at hand (the videos I posted go into a lot of examples of this) but in the end it's still trial and error.  Sakti3 actually used super computing to come up with their battery design which allowed them to "try" hundreds of thousands of combinations before they ever built a battery.  Then they picked the best candidates and gave them a try.  They claim to have found a winning combination and started working on trying to scale.  There was a lot of big name investment from companies like Dyson and Microsoft before Dyson ended up buying them outright.  I personally view Dyson's purchase of the company as a HUGE boost to the credibility of the claims.  Tesla aren't the only ones building a battery factory....Dyson is supposedly building a battery factory of his own in Michigan to start production of the solid state batteries.  I expect we won't hear much more about them until they get close to releasing a product...assuming the claims are real and they end up actually building a battery on a mass scale.  However, expect it to take at least 5 years before the technology makes it's way into a production EV.

A couple guesses for the 2017 lineup....

IPM motors across the board seems to be a gimmee....no more SPM for the FX and S/DS ZF9.8.  The IPM is easier and cheaper to build (and better performance...win, win, win) so it just makes sense that they get rid of the SPM motor.

2013 and 2014 were the years of the ZF11.4.  2015 brought us the ZF12.5.  Terry is probably right, 2016 and 2017 use ZF13.  I'm sure a lot of people will be disappointed if Terry is right (except maybe anyone who just bought or is thinking of buying a 2016) and there isn't an increase in battery capacity for 2017 but the good news is it means 2018 will likely be a gimmee year for another battery capacity increase....either the 32 Ah cells or something else.  They should at least up the power tank from 27 Ah cells to 29 Ah cells (ZF3.3 instead of ZF2.8 ).  Even though I would personally rather have faster charging than the extra battery it's kinda BS that 2016 kept the 27 Ah cells for the power tank.

Wishlist....not counting the boost to 150V which I already covered and likely won't happen...then again....I doubt anything on my wish list will make it into the 2017 lineup.

Updated App.

I like how I can customize a ridding screen with stuff like motor/controller/battery temps, amps, kwatts....why can't I add voltage and cell balance??  It seems like it would be nice to be able to monitor those during a ride...especially since you can get sudden huge drops in battery percentage (I have seen my bike suddenly drop from 14% to 0%) if the cell balance gets too far out of whack (on 2014 bikes at least...I can't vouch for whether that is still a problem on newer bikes or not but I have heard that its not....but it would still be good to be able to monitor from the ridding screen).

I would also like to be able to use the app to record data that can be exported after the fact.  Hit a 'trip' button and anything you can put on the ridding screen (plus battery voltage and cell balance) gets recorded.  It would be really awesome if the app could present the information to the user graphically too but if it could at least be exported then users could generate their own graphs.  I think it would help people better understand all the affects to range of various different conditions like speed, wind, ambient temperature, regen settings etc.  I know I would love to have it for my own range experimentation.  The app also needs to be a lot more consistent in connecting, and staying connected, to the bike bluetooth.

WiFi enabled bike.  Bluetooth is great when you are standing close by but if the bike could connect to my home WiFi (when plugged in) then you could monitor the bike from anywhere in the house (or potentially even when you aren't home but the bike is).  This could also enable remote start/stop of charging or even setting charging to start/stop at a certain time to take advantage of the best rates.  Charge statistics could also be collected (similar to the ride stats mentioned above) which would allow you to see input voltage (was the bike getting 120V AC from that outlet or only 115V??), charging amps and watts over time and overlay with battery percentage, voltage and capacity.  It would be awesome to see it all graphically either through the app or a desktop app or browser interface.  There are other ways to do it (JuiceBox for example) but it would be awesome to see it built into the bike so that it could be easily correlated with the bike battery info (percent etc.).

Flexible charging up to 12kW with onboard charging and up to 50kW DC fast charging capable...without losing the storage tank or ability to have a power tank.

This is a pretty tall order.  Particularly without taking the tank space.  Based on available charge stations in 2016 it doesn't make sense to have more than 12kW of onboard charging but that would allow riders to max out a 50 amp 240V outlet and take full advantage of the plethora of 6.6kW public chargers.  If not 12kW then at least 6.6kW...seriously...obviously 3.8kW is a lot better than stock 1.3kW but it's almost 2017...a bike with factory options should at least be able to hit 6.6kW charging.  At the very least I would like to see them open up the charge fuse from 100AMP to 200AMP and allow 2C charging through the aux port.

Better aerodynamics....dead horse beaten...

I have a lot of other nits...LED headlight/turn signals....helmet lock....full color LED dash display with Android Auto/Apple Car Play support and more ability to customize so I don't need to use my phone to get info like all temps, amps, etc...cruise control....reverse....parking brake....improved top box mount that doesn't sit on the plastic tail piece for support...side cases that can be installed and removed without leaving behind an ugly rack (like the MV Agusta Turismo Veloce)....tire hugger with turn signals and license mount instead of the stalk they use today....more stuff I can't think of right now....

I find it hard to believe that Zero would have skipped AIMExpo and gone to EICMA if they didn't have SOMETHING exciting to announce this year.

16 days is gonna feel like a lifetime....tick...tock........tick........tock................tick................................tock

[skoleskibe]

Wow tall orders they are. ;-@
Agreed 6kw charging, cruisecontrol, tirehugger or rear fender  wifi conectivity would also be nice.
I personally would also like to be able to see the lesser (range, temp and whatnot) caracters on the instrument at night under driving conditions like in City with streetllights and oncoming trafic. The caracters in the instrument is just too small to easily read under "combat conditions"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[NEW2elec]

Quote: What?!?! How dare you! It's on the internet, I just wrote it there.  The internet is never wrong!

LOL I forgot the first rule of the internet.

+1 on your more info from your bike.
I really wonder if they will ever up the voltage too.
As much as I hate to say it I don't think any of the AC charging stations will cut it for the full mass market.  They will want DC fast charging with 50-100 miles in 15 mins at least.  That will need increased voltage if I understand it right.
I also hope Terry is wrong about more battery (but something tells me he might have a real good idea about a lot of the details)
I guess we'll see soon enough.

[Richard230]

The problem with all of our wishes are that they all cost money - and lots of it.  Unlike Honda, Kawasaki, BMW, etc, which have automobile divisions to fill in their motorcycle profit gaps and lots of well-paid engineers to help design new products and features, Zero is still trying to make a living building a very niche product, with nothing but private investors to prop up the business. What they want to do is to expand the market and sell more electric motorcycles.  That will require cutting costs and getting their prices down to ICE levels. 

Most of the big ideas us enthusiasts would like to see would cost big bucks and inflate Zero prices into Ego territory. No one ever got rich or stayed in business all that long marketing $40,000 motorcycles to the world's consumers, except maybe Harley Davidson. And speaking of H-D, whatever happened to the LiveWire?    

Anyway, I am pretty sure Zero's focus is to make their products less expensive, while still meeting all of the world's constantly changing various regulatory requirements. I don't see higher voltage, faster on-board charging, a larger chassis, or expensive high-tech and unproven batteries to be on their immediate list of goals. I think they will just keep plugging along, refining their bikes every year and trying to become a mainstream vehicle manufacturer.  Personally, I'll be very happy if they kill all of the random reliability bugs in their product - and keep adding new dealers.   

[scorpion32]

In the meantime as we are all waiting for the news about the 2017 lineup, here is my short insight review of a test-drive with a Zero DS 2016 model.

1. Seating position is comfy and high, so i had a perfect overview over the traffic
2. The DS looks "more motorbike-like" than the SR. I think this is probably due to the bigger front tire. I had the feeling that other cars had more respect for the DS, so filtering though traffic was not a problem at all.
3. Control of the DS was a charm. Much easier than with clutch. The driver really has direct control about how much power is transferred to the wheels. Thus the driver can concentrate more on the traffic situation, rather than on shifting.
4. No clutch - ok, i just made my drivers license last week, so for me it was not a big deal to forget about the clutch. I think without it you can concentrate more on the driving situation which contributes to a more relaxing driving experience.
5. No noise at all at traffic lights. However there is noise during driving - the electric engine noise. At the start i was a bit disappointed that this noise is clearly hearable even if you drive with less speed, but i think i could get used to it.
6. No vibrations at all. This sure is good for the body. I remember i read an article some time ago that constant vibrations are not good for the human body, especially for the wrists.
7. Performance is nice, but not great. So probably a DSR would satisfy my needs.

Fazit: Now i really look for a DSR 2017 model. Or maybe a 2016 model if 2017 is not having the big plus items on board.
This Friday i will test-drive a Zero S, just to check the lower seating position. Curious what i think after the test-drive.

 

[scorpion32]

...
16 days is gonna feel like a lifetime....tick...tock........tick........tock................tick................................tock

Indeed !!!

[Straightedg4lif]

4. No clutch - ok, i just made my drivers license last week, so for me it was not a big deal to forget about the clutch. I think without it you can concentrate more on the driving situation which contributes to a more relaxing driving experience.

6. No vibrations at all. This sure is good for the body. I remember i read an article some time ago that constant vibrations are not good for the human body, especially for the wrists.

Fazit: Now i really look for a DSR 2017 model. Or maybe a 2016 model if 2017 is not having the big plus items on board.
This Friday i will test-drive a Zero S, just to check the lower seating position. Curious what i think after the test-drive.

I personally love the no clutch feature, and one of the big reasons I am so into the Zero motorcycles. I never liked shifting, and having to worry about that when riding was NOT fun for me when I was just learning.

I have carpal tunnel in both wrists, but my right hand is definitely worse since that is my dominant hand. The no vibration for me is like a dream.  My hands would begin to go numb riding an ICE bike, and sometimes I would only be into my ride for 15min. I would constantly have to shake out my hands at stop lights...UGH. I love no vibrations and my wrists do too. 

Definitely let us know how you enjoy the S after test riding it.

[Richard230]

In the meantime as we are all waiting for the news about the 2017 lineup, here is my short insight review of a test-drive with a Zero DS 2016 model.

1. Seating position is comfy and high, so i had a perfect overview over the traffic
2. The DS looks "more motorbike-like" than the SR. I think this is probably due to the bigger front tire. I had the feeling that other cars had more respect for the DS, so filtering though traffic was not a problem at all.
3. Control of the DS was a charm. Much easier than with clutch. The driver really has direct control about how much power is transferred to the wheels. Thus the driver can concentrate more on the traffic situation, rather than on shifting.
4. No clutch - ok, i just made my drivers license last week, so for me it was not a big deal to forget about the clutch. I think without it you can concentrate more on the driving situation which contributes to a more relaxing driving experience.
5. No noise at all at traffic lights. However there is noise during driving - the electric engine noise. At the start i was a bit disappointed that this noise is clearly hearable even if you drive with less speed, but i think i could get used to it.
6. No vibrations at all. This sure is good for the body. I remember i read an article some time ago that constant vibrations are not good for the human body, especially for the wrists.
7. Performance is nice, but not great. So probably a DSR would satisfy my needs.

Fazit: Now i really look for a DSR 2017 model. Or maybe a 2016 model if 2017 is not having the big plus items on board.
This Friday i will test-drive a Zero S, just to check the lower seating position. Curious what i think after the test-drive.

If you can hear the electric motor when riding you need to wear ear plugs to protect your hearing.  Wind noise (which can be extremely loud at high speeds) while riding any motorcycle will damage your hearing eventually.  Just try to have a conversation with a long-time Harley rider.   

[DynoMutt]

It seems to me that Zero is waiting to see how the political winds shift before making formal pricing announcements.

[Shadow]

It seems to me that Zero is waiting to see how the political winds shift before making formal pricing announcements.

caption: Zero Motorcycles prepares for the US Election results

[scorpion32]

I just found this on the Internet:
http://motonew2017.com/electric-motorcycle-zero-s-2017/

The release date of the article is odd though.
What do you think of the "new" design?

[Erasmo]

This article from 2013 has the same picture: https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2013/04/30/zero-motorcycles-moves-headquarters-expands-operations-by-26/

[scorpion32]

Ok, thats good. So it is an old article. I do not like the design.

[Shadow]

Model year 2017 does not look different to me than model year 2016. If your wishlist idea reduces part count, is easier to automate for manufacture, and provides the same performance that Zero has listed for last year's model but for lower weight and consumer cost this year... make a bingo card for the 10th, and play along!