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Author Topic: Zero 2017  (Read 46905 times)

Killroy

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2016, 09:07:25 AM »

1. Fairing + Windshield -  Comport from the wind, cold, rain and more aerodynamic for better range.
2.  Aero tail - Better range maybe storage.
3.  Better use of regen, more one handed control, less touching the brake. Like the ventrix
4.  Charge Tank, but fast as the Diginow.  Always good to have options.
5.  More color options per model
6.  Brighter LED headlight
7.  LED turn and running light
8.  Left hand brake options that delete the foot brake
9.  Update the App - Custom mode on the bike should be custom mode on the app, not Eco on the app
10. Faster On board charger that does not blow breakers near full charge. Adjustable charge rate via app or bike in case you are only on a 120VAC 15 amp circuit. 
11.  Better fork spring options - I had to cut mine to get the sag right.
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Francois

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2016, 12:54:08 PM »

we need fun
FXSR
one FX supermotard with the motor of the SR
program : weeling and stoppy
FX with a good battery graphene batterie 15 kwh
power 50kw torque 150nm
wight 120kg max
tire 150/60 at the back to have choise to put what we want
wheel 4.25 and 3.50
good break 4 cylinder radial

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grmarks

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2016, 05:04:49 PM »

we need fun
FXSR
one FX supermotard with the motor of the SR
program : weeling and stoppy
FX with a good battery graphene batterie 15 kwh
power 50kw torque 150nm
wight 120kg max
tire 150/60 at the back to have choise to put what we want
wheel 4.25 and 3.50
good break 4 cylinder radial

With a graphene battery (like on the other post) then 15kwh is only 14.4kg - thats less than with one current battery! It would put the FX at about 108 kg.
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2016, 06:26:25 PM »

Aren't Graphene batteries a long way into the future? If they can make them work at all that is? I think the general consensus on this forum is to admire the research but not get too excited about it until it's in production. That could easily be ten years away.

I'm probably guilty of wishing too much by way of developments. It's remarkable what Zero have achieved with their limited resources over the last few years. None of this stuff is easy, just look at all those that have tried and failed.

I really enjoy riding my Zero, which is a 2014 model. Even if Zero only manage a bit of extra spit and polish for next year's model, I feel it's a great product as it stands. Perhaps we should try and tame our expectations. Development can include better reliability and better customer service.  :-)
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MrDude_1

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2016, 06:58:35 PM »

Aren't Graphene batteries a long way into the future? If they can make them work at all that is? I think the general consensus on this forum is to admire the research but not get too excited about it until it's in production. That could easily be ten years away.

Yeah. We dont even have a way of mass producing graphene sheets yet.
In the near future, we can expect to see more C rating (both charging and discharging) from carbon coating in Lipo batteries, but nothing extreme.  Just a small advancement from the lower internal resistance due to the larger surface area from the carbon.

This is more helpful though to those of us that want more power.  Just get a larger controller (not cheap or easy) and program it for more amps(not easy)... but then more "snap".
Clearly if Zero did this, it would have to be in a performance model though. Some people have trouble with the S as it is.
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Ranga

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2016, 09:04:05 PM »

we need fun
FXSR
one FX supermotard with the motor of the SR
program : weeling and stoppy
FX with a good battery graphene batterie 15 kwh
power 50kw torque 150nm
wight 120kg max
tire 150/60 at the back to have choise to put what we want
wheel 4.25 and 3.50
good break 4 cylinder radial

So you want an FXS with 3x the battery capacity, twice the torque and you want it to weigh less than what it currently does.  If such a bike does exist, how much would you be willing to pay for it?
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2015 Zero FX

Rhamphorhynchus

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2016, 10:20:34 PM »

+1 on the fairing. The bike I secretly really want is this http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoGallerys/Honda-RC-E-Concept-Bike-2011.jpg  ;D
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MrDude_1

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2016, 11:11:04 PM »

we need fun
FXSR
one FX supermotard with the motor of the SR
program : weeling and stoppy
FX with a good battery graphene batterie 15 kwh
power 50kw torque 150nm
wight 120kg max
tire 150/60 at the back to have choise to put what we want
wheel 4.25 and 3.50
good break 4 cylinder radial

So you want an FXS with 3x the battery capacity, twice the torque and you want it to weigh less than what it currently does.  If such a bike does exist, how much would you be willing to pay for it?

The same as a top dollar ICE offroad bike of course.
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zr2ee

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2016, 08:43:52 AM »

Those interested in Zero's up and coming features and fairings may be interested in this article http://paultan.org/2016/04/11/iims-2016-zero-motorcycles-e-bikes-on-display/
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2016, 09:23:53 AM »

Those interested in Zero's up and coming features and fairings may be interested in this article http://paultan.org/2016/04/11/iims-2016-zero-motorcycles-e-bikes-on-display/

To be clear, it's an Indonesian dealer offering a customization, quoted at 23000 USD:
http://www.trussty.com/2016/04/here-she-is-zero-electric-motorcycle.html?m=1
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Current: 2020 DSR, 2012 Suzuki V-Strom
Former: 2016 DSR, 2013 DS

protomech

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2016, 10:43:09 AM »

Hmm, realistic for 2017.

What we probably won't see

1. Factory supported aerodynamic option. We all know improved aero has huge advantages. Zero's engineering team knows. Either the engineering and styling folks haven't completed the aero fairings - possible, good aero is hard - or the business folks haven't figured out how to sell it.

I also suspect they may be waiting for a viable DCQC option to really focus on a touring bike. Without DCQC, aero improvements would really only offer a very small benefit to existing customers that are already buying their bikes.

In order to see huge growth, Zero needs to attract the tech-curious mainstream biker. A debatably goofy-looking aero shell ($2000?) and $3000 in aftermarket, heavy equipment to charge at RV parks is cool to us, but it's not going to pull in the mainstream biker.


Time to charge 1 hour of highway riding @ 70 mph, or highway miles charged per minute (mpm):

Tesla Model S 90D @ 310 Wh/mile, 100 kW 1.1C charge 0% to 50%: 14.0 minutes, 5 mpm
Zero 6 brick 29 Ah, moderate aero @ 120 Wh/mile, 34 kW 2C charge to 80%: 14.9 minutes, 4.7 mpm
Tesla Model S 70 @ 310 Wh/mile, 80 kW 1.1C charge 0% to 50%: 16.3 minutes, 4.3 mpm
Zero 5 brick 29 Ah, moderate aero @ 120 Wh/mile, 28 kW 2C charge to 80%: 18.4 minutes, 3.8 mpm
Nissan LEAF @ 50 kW CHAdeMO: 35 minutes, 2 mpm
Zero, Vetter streamliner @ 100 Wh/mile, DigiNow 10kW from 14-50: 44 minutes, 1.6 mpm
Zero, moderate aero @ 120 Wh/mile, DigiNow 7kW from 32A J1772: 70 minutes, 1 mpm
Stock 2016 @ 140 Wh/mile, 3.8 kW Charge Tank: 140 minutes, 0.5 mpm

Note that the six-brick Zero S is five times as fast (!) as the DigiNow bike, assuming the same level of aero treatment.

I think the magic number is somewhere around 4 minutes of riding / driving per minute spent charging .. and I think we'll see a real tipping point once this can be done affordably (ie not the $30k price points Lightning and Energica sell at).

2. More power. Zero just introduced the IPM motors. Don't expect to see a change here.

3. Significantly more energy. Zero could build a 17-18 kWh 6 brick bike today, which would boost range by about 25% vs a 2016 PT bike with only a very small weight penalty. Like the aero tweaks, I think this may wait until the DCQC wars settle out.


Realistic Wishlist

1. Power Tank using the same cells as the rest of the bike. Obvious. Small improvement in energy - would push the city range over 200 miles for a big marketing win - but also I think improve reliability re: mismatched cell chemistries.

2. Possibly a higher energy density, lower power density cell. The 29Ah cell seems to be an amazing cell, but even for the SR has far more power density than required. I wonder if Farasis could apply a similar set of refinements to the 29 Ah cell and produce a 30-31 Ah cell in the same form factor. A 4 brick 31 Ah bike would have about 7% more energy, and a 5 brick 31 Ah bike would have about 10% more energy (15.5 kWh nominal).

Zero has increased capacity every year from 2010 to 2016, save 2014. To do so in 2017 they will need a more energy-dense chemistry or to significantly reconfigure the bike architecture, and all the indicators they're sending are that they're not ready to reconfigure yet.

3. Full LED lighting. Something as advanced as the Zero should have similarly advanced lighting. These are expensive bikes, let's give them appropriate headlights :)

4. Ditch the ridiculously heavy, failure-prone on-board charger. Integrate the 2.5 kW charger and J1772 from the Charge Tank as standard. This will be a big win for those with 240V domestic circuits, and help keep charge times from further inflating.

5. Offer a low-cost 5 year extended warranty. Either the bikes are reliable and this is easy money for Zero or they're not, and it isn't. Zero has been very good about "making it right" for owners even out of warranty (see MY13 power pack replacement), but I think we'd all like to hope that's the last major recall Zero has to do.

6. Further price cuts. I would not be surprised to see the $1000 April promotion become permanent.

7. The 3 brick 2016 S has about 90% as much range as the 4 brick 2013 .. and the 2016 cell chemistry has a lot of power. What about a 3 brick SR? It'd cost Zero almost no engineering time to make, it'd make splashy headlines (< 3s 0-60? race a Zero vs P90DL?), and I think it'd draw a lot of interest from people that eventually buy 4 brick bikes anyways.


My secret wish

Validate the existing 29 Ah cell technology for 2C charging, add some thermal transfer material or whatnot for better cooling, and partner with Tesla for Supercharger network access. Then we can go full-steam ahead on a six-brick aero-tweaked bike.. 150 miles of highway range will make the 100 mile hops between Superchargers easy, and it'll take only 30 minutes to get enough range for 90 minutes of riding.

This is great for Zero. The Tesla superchargers claim to go down as low as 60V, and can push a couple hundred amps. Perfect for the ~100V technology Zero uses today. Even if CCS eventually beats CHAdEMO in the US and the EU, the higher voltage and 100-125A maximum limitation reduce the effectiveness.

This is great for Tesla. It validates their strategy of openness to other manufacturers. Zeros will sip electricity compared to cars, so Tesla's electricity bill will barely budge. Good publicity for both Tesla and Zero.
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2016, 01:16:04 PM »

Great post promo, as always. Thanks. Some great thinking there.

Another advantage to Tesla opening up to Zero is the fact that there aren't so many of us yet, so less chance of us hogging their chargers and upsetting Tesla owners. I wouldn't be surprised to see a time limit for charging to make sure people don't leave their bikes plugged in too long.

I've got a really easy suggestion for the 2017 models: Put a belt tension guage in the faux tank bag along with the charge cable.
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protomech

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2016, 04:22:33 PM »

Great post proto, as always. Thanks. Some great thinking there.

Another advantage to Tesla opening up to Zero is the fact that there aren't so many of us yet, so less chance of us hogging their chargers and upsetting Tesla owners. I wouldn't be surprised to see a time limit for charging to make sure people don't leave their bikes plugged in too long.
Maybe Zero is hinting at something .. we can dream :)
https://twitter.com/zeromc/status/719589421897494528

As far as leaving the bike plugged in is concerned.. the inlet could be set to unlock after a full charge, and perhaps the bike wouldn't even block a car from charging. The Zero battery doesn't seem to need as much taper as the Tesla battery, so realistically a 20-80% charge (charge 90 miles for a six brick mild aero S) would take less than 20 minutes at 2C.

The average miles per minute charge rate is similar, but even a larger Zero battery with mild aero doesn't have the outright range that a Tesla would have ... so the bikes simply won't spend as long in the typical case on the charger.
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2016, 07:06:39 PM »

There's another potential objection flattened! :-)
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lolachampcar

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Re: Zero 2017
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2016, 04:22:02 PM »

Tesla just launched their Model 3 with huge interest.  Plans are to double the SuperCharger network this year.  Given there are already usage issues (lines forming, valet service required to keep irritation down) in some areas, I really do not see Tesla providing SC services to anyone else given the demands Model 3 will put on the network.

In addition, it sees silly to use 135 KW fast DC charging capability for something that could just as easily be accomplished using 80 amp 220V service although you would have to have a charger to get the job done.
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