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[MostlyBonkers]

I guess the obvious answer to that question is:  As much as possible. However, until we have batteries that give us 1000 miles on a charge and only weight a few kilos, there are going to be compromises.

I think Justin's setup will be good when he gets the Diginow: 2015SR with a powertank. He was hopeful he'd get around 120 miles of mixed riding. That could easily be three hours rolling before a nice long lunch to charge up to 90% or so. Another couple of hours on the road, another stop for up to an hour and another couple of hours riding should make for a pleasant day's touring.

Has anyone found a practical sweet spot where they're likely to want to stop for long enough to make it worth plugging in?

I can count on only about 65 miles of mixed and spirited riding from my 2014 DSP. It's still enough for a couple of hours of fun if I keep to the slower country roads. I could still go long distances with the Diginow but I'd probably be planning the shortest routes and doing no more than 200 miles a day. I wouldn't invest in a powertank because I don't need one for the vast majority of my riding.

I know high speed cruising changes things dramatically but that's not the kind of touring that Zero's are suitable for without a decent screen at least.

I have a feeling that the ideal range might be closer to 150-200 miles to allow for three to four hours of riding at higher average speeds.

Have any of you with some actual experience found some numbers that generally work?

[Erasmo]

I do ride a lot for my work and start looking for a place to have a quick stop after about two hours because after that time I find that I do lose some sharpness, especially in extreme temperatures.
It isn't a big break, just a sip of water and some relaxing for 5-10 minutes but I could keep myself occupied for 20-ish minutes easily with the help of a smartphone, looking for local landmarks or similar. Next stop will be lunch or coffee anyway so there is a opportunity to charge to full.

 

[protomech]

I bought the VFR in part to answer that question for myself.

The VFR has a practical range of about 200 miles, which means I need to fill up about every 170, which is 2-3.5 hours of riding. I find that I prefer about one more stop in there, so maybe a break every 90 minutes or so.

High-speed riding has more frequent fuel stops but also is more fatiguing, even with a nice touring setup, so that works out nicely.

[benswing]

Last summer I traveled between 60 and 130 miles on a charge using my 2014 Zero SR and 2 Elcons.  Stopping to charge took 1-1.5 hours.  Each day I averaged 310 miles and had a max range of 475 miles which took 17 hours (7am to midnight.)

This summer I plan to ride the same distances for each leg but cut down charging to 30 minutes to an hour using RV Parks as much as possible.  This should allow me to travel farther each day.  I'd like to average 400 miles a day with a max of 550 miles.

Regarding a hypothetical sweet spot, I don't mind stopping envy 1.5 hours, but I'd like the freedom to go about 150-200 miles at a stretch and charge in half an hour or less.  That would be the tipping point in my mind.

With the DigiNow charger I hope to charge in 30 minutes to one hour.  That will allow me to ride for a longer amount of time then I am charging.

[Electric Terry]

Stopping even for 15 minutes every 60-75 minutes is ideal to maintain comfort, mental awareness and prevent the onset of fatigue.  We don't need bigger batteries.  The current batteries will do that.  We need high power dense batteries and better smaller charging technology.

The current Enerdell cells have a standard 5C charge rate, or full charge in 12 minutes.  I believe Dr. Wong from farasis will eventually give the ok for at least 2C charging on the 2016 cells.  They are a better chemistry than the 2015 cells and more energy dense and more power dense.

Better charge technology is what needs to improve.   And with SiC Mosfets, and/or combining the charging system with an oversized controller system and using one of the three motor phases as the PFC inductor to keep that heat out of the charger casing, and keep the charger/controller cooler and smaller will allow one day to carry 50 kW charging on board.  This will be needed as future fast charging can happen from DC fast chargers, using the charge stations as a power source to power the chargers at 400 VDC at their 125 amp limit.

The Zero's are safer, less expensive, less complicated, and more efficient at 116 volts rather than 400.  However, since the rest of the industry has adopted 400 volts, getting a direct charge to the batteries will have to go through chargers we carry with us.

If you look at page 4, on the left side under "Electrical Output" you will see the rapidly deploying next generation of CCS chargers will only do 300-460 VDC output.   

https://www.chargepoint.com/files/datasheets/ds-cpe100.pdf

ChargePoint already has a fully functional corridor of these stretching from Mexico to Canada along I-5.  However we can use these as a power source if we carry the AC to DC charger with us.

That's the way I see it going.  I've done every type of riding and done huge distances.  Those who ride more than 1 hour at a time, usually get sore or chaffing and can't end up doing 1000+ miles in a day.   Those who are smart, stop every hour for a least a drink of water, to close your eyes for 20 seconds to mentally refresh and to walk to keep the blood circulation going in your legs.  This stop can be 10-15 minutes.   

If you stop 15 minutes (4C charging) every hour at 70 mph, in a day you can do 1120 miles pretty easy.  1120 is 70 miles, 16 times during the day.  There are exactly 16 90 minute intervals each day.  90 minutes is an hour at 70 mph plus 15 minutes at 4C charging, and 5 minutes to get to and from the highway.

So for touring, I don't think batteries need to get that much better.  Although I'm sure they will every year or two by a little at a time.  But what really needs to happen is charging needs to improve rapidly.

[MostlyBonkers]

Wow, thank you Ben and Terry! I was hoping you'd both pitch in.

[MrDude_1]

combining the charging system with an oversized controller system and using one of the three motor phases as the PFC inductor to keep that heat out of the charger casing, and keep the charger/controller cooler and smaller will allow one day to carry 50 kW charging on board.  This will be needed as future fast charging can happen from DC fast chargers, using the charge stations as a power source to power the chargers at 400 VDC at their 125 amp limit.

YES! This is exactly what I am waiting for.  No extra charger, it should all be right there in the controller. No need to carry redundant circuits. One unit with well designed thermal control and an externally cooled inductor (doesnt have to be the motor IMO, but if it works well enough...) This is alot like how the Adaptto ebike system works.


A 2C charge rate would also be cool. 30min charge times are plenty quick enough.... although if the bike comes in hot off a ride, asking it to charge over .8c AND use the motor for the inductor might be asking too much... the system would then have to dial back for cool down, and standing still on a hot day, that may take awhile.

[NEW2elec]

Once again forgive my lack EE knowledge.  If I understand this right Zero has four batteries in the monolith.  Each one at the 116V and they are in parallel which is what gives you more range.  If they were in series it would be over 400V which with the right set up could make it go much faster but very short range (like those drag racing bikes).  What if they were wired for both with a switch to convert it to a series set up for fast DC charging at 400V and then back to parallel for riding.  It seems too simple not to have been done if it were that easy but I thought I'd put it out there.

[Richard230]

My problem with on-the-road charging is finding a charging station that still works (is being properly maintained and repaired and has not been vandalized) and finding one that is also unoccupied.  This thought was reinforced by a TV news story about the Model 3 that showed a row of Tesla Model S cars all lined up and plugged into all of the chargers at a Tesla charging site and not a soul in sight. What do you do if you are on a trip and you come across a charging station that has no unoccupied (or working) chargers?  I can't even stand it when I arrive at a gas station on my motorcycle and have to wait a minute or two to access a pump because the owner of the vehicle at the pump is in the station mini-mart buying a beer or taking a dump. When I am riding, all I want to do is refuel and get back on the road.    So for me, a larger battery pack that provides a longer range, is what I want for my EV rides.     I prefer to recharge while I am sleeping.   

[MrDude_1]

Once again forgive my lack EE knowledge.  If I understand this right Zero has four batteries in the monolith.  Each one at the 116V and they are in parallel which is what gives you more range.  If they were in series it would be over 400V which with the right set up could make it go much faster but very short range (like those drag racing bikes).  What if they were wired for both with a switch to convert it to a series set up for fast DC charging at 400V and then back to parallel for riding.  It seems too simple not to have been done if it were that easy but I thought I'd put it out there.

There are a couple issues with this.  First they're paralleled on the cell level. each "battery" contains 28 cells.   cell 1 of battery one, is connected to the "cell 1" monitor of the Battery Monitoring System (BMS).  On battery two, cell 1 is also connected to the "Cell 1" BMS connection.... so Cell 1 of battery 1 is connected to Cell 1 of battery 2 through the monitoring wires.
This is true for all the cells. Its what lets the BMS watch it like one large battery instead of 4 small ones.
If you swapped the power wires around to put the batteries in series, these connections would cause a major short, because Cell 1 of battery two would become cell 29.. and it is directly connected to cell 1

So first thing that would have to change, is to add 4 separate BMS systems.



now you have to swap the power wires around. These wires can pull HUGE peak amp loads. There are only two kinds of switches for things like this. Mechanical and Solid-State.
Mechanical switches wear contacts. They break. They stick.   If they dont work perfectly, you can fireball your bike. Poor choice.

Solid state switches cause resistance. They can also stick. They can overheat. They have to be cooled. They're expensive.


For something as simple as connecting some wires, it gets complex at higher amp loads. Things get worse as voltage goes up too. things arc... or in the case of solid state, they get very very hot. 

[NEW2elec]

Thanks I knew there had to be issues with it but didn't know what they were.

[MostlyBonkers]

I confess I'm a little surprised that Terry is more or less suggesting that my 2014 DS(P) would have sufficient range for touring. That's with 4C charging, I understand. Makes sense with the right technology and infrastructure.  Great points about the importance of regular stops  too.

With the Diginow, I could probably plan a day with three charging stops:

1.  Mid morning tea and biscuits, reading, explore the locality etc.

2.  Lunch and a nap.

3. Afternoon tea.

The third charge would be as little as needed to get to my destination.

120 miles by lunchtime with an early start. Another 100 miles in the afternoon perhaps. Not bad.