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[DPsSRnSD]

The fastest riders in the world lean the bike over at extreme angles and get it there by almost falling off the bike.

actually, they get there by countersteering with good upper body strength. You can get there with your butt on the seat and your legs on the tank... the catch being.. you would be going much slower.

I'll have to take your word for that since I don't know any racers and have never been in a motorcycle race. They don't seem that strong in the upper body compared to athletes in some other sports though, and it isn't hard for me to countersteer.

that actually should say "good old fashioned upper body strength"... but since it was brought up.. for their size they do have strong shoulders. those guys are tougher than they look.
counter-steering shouldnt be hard, especially at street legal speeds on a modern motorcycle.

Maybe that's why I don't ride like Pedrosa. My legs are still very strong but my shoulders and elbows have taken too many hits.

[WoadRaider]

In other words, the person sitting upright and having the bike leaned over has to bring their bike to the upright position before applying maximum braking. It may only take an extra second, but one second at 40 mph is 58 feet

Humm... But it is easier and faster to pull/push the handlebars (force on the handlebars is the main turning force) out of a turn if you have more leverage, and you have more leverage if you are pulling/pushing from the direction you want to turn to. Don't get me wrong, professional riders can shift weight/body position in a fraction of a second; so it's no big deal to them it's a practiced athletic maneuver. But to the average lay person it's probably much easier to pull out of a relatively slow/sharp turn if you aren't leaned past the bike. The statement/assertion you made doesn't stand up to logic; there's no physical reason (in this universe or any I know of =P) as to why it would be easier to get out of a turn if you leaned further into it. The bike will be leaned less to begin with but you still have to pull yourself to the center and exert more effort to turn the other direction. So the time it takes you to exert the extra effort and change your body position will be more than to pull/push the bike a little more from a position in which it is easier to do so.

I can literally weave the bike to the inside and outside edges of the road while in a turn with little effort, I don't think that is as easy if you're straight up and down and leaning the bike.

Right, because you aren't switching to the opposite direction. You are just modulating the sharpness of your turn and it's easier to do that from a position further within that turn; you have more leverage if you want to turn more sharply and you don't have to move very much to turn a little less sharply.

Also, just the idea that you'd do this to drag knee... it's actually the opposite. I'm sort of mid-pack in intermediate track day groups and I can pace with guys that drag knee but I have never done it. Why can they drag knee and I can't? It's actually because they lean the bike over and get it more sideways to get their knee down. They also slide their lower body down while leaning their upper body towards the bike. So in other words, they are using bad technique to drag knee. The point is that I am able to go as fast as them but also have the bike more upright in turns

It's funny that this whole discussion started because I called such a turn (knee on the ground) crazy (although I meant extreme), and while I was wrong to think that leaning off the bike doesn't turn it faster (because I wasn't thinking of tire surface/warping), it turns out my intuition about that was correct, at least most of the time; even if you position properly you will eventually get your knee on the ground when considering a turn that is increasingly sharp.
And as I just insinuated; I'm still of the mind that the 1-4 degree benefit and added traction are insignificant/inconsequential (compared to being able to pull out of a turn quickly) for almost all conceivable everyday riding situations.

[MrDude_1]

And as I just insinuated; I'm still of the mind that the 1-4 degree benefit and added traction are insignificant/inconsequential (compared to being able to pull out of a turn quickly) for almost all conceivable everyday riding situations.

and I disagree with that statement entirely.
hit one unseen slick oil or sand spot mid corner... and you'll wash out.
hit the same with proper body position and you wont... or atleast be able to recover.

[Manzanita]

But it is easier and faster to pull/push the handlebars (force on the handlebars is the main turning force) out of a turn if you have more leverage

So there must be some basic misunderstanding here. You can apply harder braking when your bike (not your body!) is more upright.

You do not need to get your body upright to get your bike upright to engage maximum braking. In other words, the person whose body is leaned over the most and whose bike is most upright minimizes the bike/body adjustment they have to make before hard braking. So maximum body lean = minimum bike lean = faster braking response. In other words, you can brake more with your body is leaned off the bike. Not sure how many more ways I can express this...

[WoadRaider]

hit one unseen slick oil or sand spot mid corner... and you'll wash out.
hit the same with proper body position and you wont... or atleast be able to recover.

You're insinuating that the bike's lean angle is always, or likely, going to be the deciding factor when it comes to whether or not someone loses control. I'm sorry to say that we are not on the racetrack, you don't need the best possible control at all times. If there's sand/gravel in the road I straighten the bike as I deem appropriate; that usually also involves attempting to avoid the sand/gravel and or braking (after straightened). I am already going slow (relatively) around blind corners (unless I had view of the road from further back and know it's clear and/or no incoming traffic) anyway because I'm not an idiot (at least not usually). A little bit of gravel (or even a lot if it's a narrow enough patch) or slick road isn't going to cause me to wipe out. What does concern me, as far as potential for wiping out, is wet road lines. But it only rains here 30 days a year; How often am I in the rain and I can't just go slower to make sure I stay in my lane? So let's just guess that I'll be riding in a hurry on a rainy day about once a year and on that day I'll take heed of your advice. Thank you.

So there must be some basic misunderstanding here. You can apply harder braking when your bike (not your body!) is more upright.
You do not need to get your body upright to get your bike upright to engage maximum braking. In other words, the person whose body is leaned over the most and whose bike is most upright minimizes the bike/body adjustment they have to make before hard braking. So maximum body lean = minimum bike lean = faster braking response. In other words, you can brake more with your body is leaned off the bike. Not sure how many more ways I can express this..

Right, but it's easier/faster to get your bike upright if you have more leverage, and you have more leverage if your body is centered (or at least not hanging off the bike...) or on the outside of the turn (which I don't recommend, I'm just saying you would have more leverage from that position). And actually mrwilsn just provided a link to a diagram indicating that you might have more patch at a 40 degree lean. http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=329325

[Manzanita]

You seem to be suggesting that leaning your upper body to the inside of a turn is some sort of radical elite racer technique. It is not. It is what is taught to beginning riders and it applies to all range of abilities and conditions. If you don't want to ride that way, that's okay with me.

I do understand your perception that it is easier to throw the bike around when you're on top of it versus with your upper body leaned over. Skilled dirt riders can do all sorts of things crossed-up and stunt riders use it as well. But they are skilled enough to handle the bike sliding around. *That* is a fairly advanced technique. If you don't want to slide, or want to have maximum control while in a slide, keep the bike as upright as possible. You do that by leaning your body into the turn.

I think this is a good discussion because it is such a basic point, and I know people who mock riders who lean their bodies into turns as if these riders are pretending to be racers. Ride however you want, it's just been my experience that it works for me, it makes sense, and it is consistent with everything I have read. It's easy to ride around and tell yourself you will never be riding at "those speeds" but due to natural progression of skill, one day you will be without even trying. It's like buying good tires and good brake pads--you're trying to minimize the possibility of going down or avoiding an accident, even if 99.9% of the time you don't need that margin. Same thing with body lean; at lower speeds I can easily choose not to do it, but I think I maximize my safety margin by doing it.

[MrDude_1]

You're insinuating that the bike's lean angle is always, or likely, going to be the deciding factor when it comes to whether or not someone loses control.

No. I am saying the weight distribution matters more. sitting upright will likely overload the rear tire and keep the front light. leaning forward keeps it more balanced. leaning to the side can keep the bike more upright.  You dont have to lean off like a racer, but you do have to move on the bike.

I'm sorry to say that we are not on the racetrack, you don't need the best possible control at all times.

To say you dont need the best possible control.. is moronic, irresponsible, and the equlivent of saying "meh... fuck it all. I will probably be ok"
Its the type of attitude that ends with the person going "there was nothing I could do" after the accident happens.

If there's sand/gravel in the road I straighten the bike as I deem appropriate; that usually also involves attempting to avoid the sand/gravel and or braking (after straightened). I am already going slow (relatively) around blind corners (unless I had view of the road from further back and know it's clear and/or no incoming traffic) anyway because I'm not an idiot (at least not usually). A little bit of gravel (or even a lot if it's a narrow enough patch) or slick road isn't going to cause me to wipe out. What does concern me, as far as potential for wiping out, is wet road lines. But it only rains here 30 days a year; How often am I in the rain and I can't just go slower to make sure I stay in my lane? So let's just guess that I'll be riding in a hurry on a rainy day about once a year and on that day I'll take heed of your advice. Thank you.

so your basic takeway is that "you'll always see it coming"... and therefore have no need of knowing any more motorcycle skills. Everything will be solved by going slower and seeing it coming.

Right, but it's easier/faster to get your bike upright if you have more leverage, and you have more leverage if your body is centered (or at least not hanging off the bike...) or on the outside of the turn (which I don't recommend, I'm just saying you would have more leverage from that position). And actually mrwilsn just provided a link to a diagram indicating that you might have more patch at a 40 degree lean. http://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php?g2_view=largephotos.Largephotos&g2_itemId=329325

You dont need massive leverage to move the bike... if you know basic countersteering. If you still think leaning off the bike has ANYTHING to do with the bike cornering, you are mistaken.

[WoadRaider]

You seem to be suggesting that leaning your upper body to the inside of a turn is some sort of radical elite racer technique.

Not at all, go back and re-read this thread from the beginning; This conversation started with me saying that having your knee to the ground is for crazy (as in extreme) high speed turns (which should only be done on the track). And the furthest my position has gone from that is to say that even taking your body off the bike is unnecessary for every day riding. Both of those statements are unarguably true and yet people keep claiming that they are necessary components of riding. Only one situation (in every day riding) has been presented (partly by me) in which it makes sense (and is at all likely to be necessary) to lean way over the side; in a moderate/fast turn when the ground is wet/slick or there is a lot of gravel. And even that situation assumes a blind corner (or lack of attention to the road) or that the rider wasn't smart enough to slow down ahead of time.

I do understand your perception that it is easier to throw the bike around when you're on top of it versus with your upper body leaned over.

Again, it's not going to be much of a difference if you are just leaned over a little, the real difference is if you are physically off the side of the bike; it's going to be much harder (as in take more physical effort) to come out of that turn than if you are centered. Again, it seems to me that this is an inarguable point... For some reason leaning over a little is being conflated with leaning over a lot (off the bike).

it makes sense, and it is consistent with everything I have read. It's easy to ride around and tell yourself you will never be riding at "those speeds"... It's like buying good tires and good brake pads--you're trying to minimize the possibility of going down or avoiding an accident, even if 99.9% of the time you don't need that margin. Same thing with body lean; at lower speeds I can easily choose not to do it, but I think I maximize my safety margin by doing it.

I agree with all of that. Just keep in mind that while changing body position (in all sorts of ways) is important/necessary to control over a bike, when talking about every day riding leaning off the bike is *potentially* beneficial. Potentially beneficial is a long way off from necessary or even useful. Thanks for keeping this polite.

To say you dont need the best possible control.. is moronic, irresponsible, and the equlivent of saying "meh... fuck it all. I will probably be ok"
Its the type of attitude that ends with the person going "there was nothing I could do" after the accident happens.

Well, you forgot to add that it is *true*, the rest is just your opinion. Granted, I do agree with some of that opinion; in that there's no reason to be reckless and you should at least consider whether or not something is making you more or less safe. But safety isn't everything and there is such a thing as "safe enough". If you spend your whole life worrying about being safe you have, in my opinion, just wasted a lot of time (especially if it's about things that aren't at all likely to hurt you to begin with, not that a motorcycle accident is on that list).

so your basic takeway is that "you'll always see it coming"... and therefore have no need of knowing any more motorcycle skills. Everything will be solved by going slower and seeing it coming.

Well, I don't remember saying that, but that's largely correct. I do not need to know any more motorcycle skills, I am comfortable with my control of the vehicle. I do not plan to do any racing, extreme turns, tricks, stunts, etc... I mostly drive like a car and when I do actually use the motorcycle specific capabilities it's to avoid an accident (just yesterday someone was trying to merge lanes right into me so I just moved over in the lane, checked traffic, and merged to the left), pass cars at red lights, make sharp low speed turns, and occasionally lane split (if I think it's safe to do so). Those are all relatively easy to do (except for maybe the lane splitting) once you have a little experience.

You dont need massive leverage to move the bike... if you know basic countersteering. If you still think leaning off the bike has ANYTHING to do with the bike cornering, you are mistaken.

That sir, I believe, meets the definition of a straw-man argument. My position was never that you need massive leverage to move the bike, but that: the more leverage you have the easier/faster you can do so. Which seems to me to be an unarguable point. I couldn't make sense of that last sentence.

[togo]

You seem to be suggesting that leaning your upper body to the inside of a turn is some sort of radical elite racer technique. It is not. It is what is taught to beginning riders and it applies to all range of abilities and conditions. ...

Huh.  I've been riding for more than 30 years.  I guess I need a refresher.

[Manzanita]

Huh.  I've been riding for more than 30 years.  I guess I need a refresher.

From the current California Motorcycle Safety Training manual for first-time beginners (I quote):

LEANING IN - HIGH SPEED

When you see pictures or videos of motorcycle racers hanging off their bikes with their knees on the ground, that is an example of the "leaning in" technique taken to the extreme. Why do they do it? It provides increased ground clearance and traction so they can go faster (they are racing, after all).

Even riders who aren't racing can learn a thing or two from the concept. For street riding there is not a good reason to go to the extreme that racers go to. However, leaning slightly and not increasing speed increases traction and ground clearance in case there are any unexpected hazards. The leaning in technique is recommended if you find yourself dragging footpegs or floorboards in a corner or otherwise running out of ground clearance. Leaning your upper body slightly to the inside can give you the extra ground clearance and traction you need to get through the turn. <end of quote>

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

^ Yes, basic motorcycle training grew to encompass body lean, counter-steering, and other techniques. By the time I started in an MSF class in 2006, counter-steering was practiced and basic body lean was described to try later, and I took them for granted.

[WoadRaider]

LEANING IN - HIGH SPEED

I think the word most relevant to this discussion is "high". How often do you make high speed turns in everyday riding? Almost never. I've probably only seen 4-5 on ramps and 2-3 large roads with enough turn and length/visibility to where I can safely execute a sharp turn (more than 80 degree direction change over a relatively short distance) at over 40mph in all of SD county. None of which are on my commutes and I only encounter one with any regularity. So yeah, I guess on that one off/on ramp I should actually be leaning off the bike a little. Although come to think of it, that turn might not actually be as sharp as it feels at 55-60 mph and it probably just barely changes your vector by 80 degrees.

^ Yes, basic motorcycle training grew to encompass body lean, counter-steering, and other techniques. By the time I started in an MSF class in 2006, counter-steering was practiced and basic body lean was described to try later, and I took them for granted.

It almost seems a little silly to have counter steering in any class that's teaching safety/skills rather than physics/physical mechanics because counter-steering is something we've all been doing automatically since childhood; while riding our bicycles.

[DPsSRnSD]

Well, there it is on page 84:

"LEANING IN
"When you see pictures or videos of motorcycle racers hanging off their bikes with their knees on the ground, that is an example of the “leaning in” technique taken to the extreme. Why do they do it? It provides increased ground clearance and traction so they can go faster (they are racing, after all).
"Even riders who aren’t racing can learn a thing or two from the concept. The only time the leaning in technique is recommended is if you find yourself dragging footpegs or floorboards in a corner or otherwise running out of ground clearance. Leaning your upper body slightly to the inside can give you the extra ground clearance and traction you need to get through the turn. (Next time enter that turn slower!)"

I don't understand why the instructors didn't have us practice this on the motorcycle range.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

^ Yes, basic motorcycle training grew to encompass body lean, counter-steering, and other techniques. By the time I started in an MSF class in 2006, counter-steering was practiced and basic body lean was described to try later, and I took them for granted.

It almost seems a little silly to have counter steering in any class that's teaching safety/skills rather than physics/physical mechanics because counter-steering is something we've all been doing automatically since childhood; while riding our bicycles.

I'm always floored when some people think that counter-steering doesn't exist or must not work. It's certainly true that it isn't very noticeable below 20mph, so that's one explanation.

[MrDude_1]

^ Yes, basic motorcycle training grew to encompass body lean, counter-steering, and other techniques. By the time I started in an MSF class in 2006, counter-steering was practiced and basic body lean was described to try later, and I took them for granted.

It almost seems a little silly to have counter steering in any class that's teaching safety/skills rather than physics/physical mechanics because counter-steering is something we've all been doing automatically since childhood; while riding our bicycles.

I'm always floored when some people think that counter-steering doesn't exist or must not work. It's certainly true that it isn't very noticeable below 20mph, so that's one explanation.

The people that dont know how countersteering works.. dont know how to ride. period.
They're also the ones that cant swerve out of the way...

strangely, they're also most likely to not have full gear on either...