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Author Topic: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.  (Read 12120 times)

BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #90 on: March 31, 2016, 10:07:38 PM »

Yeah I thought the same thing about the DBL-2 except that it has unnecessary air-scoops, and it's a little smaller (plus I like the the way the DBL-1 looks)

The DBL-1 certainly has better lines. The DBL-2 scoops don't bother me, and I might actually open them up. It probably just needs the right color or paint scheme to get a good look, anyway - the classic vintage brown in the photos not to my taste at all.

I tried to size it up the best that I could given the cursory dimensions listed on the website, and using the wheels for scale. It's not perfect by any means, but it's roughly the right size.

That's probably the best that can be done given the studio shot limitations.

It would be really nice to be able to remove it easily for non-touring situations.

That means working out some mounts - probably to follow Burton's advice on the other thread. That means some lower mounts from the battery cover bolts, and upper mounts just forward/above the battery compartment that either run through the tank area or stop at the frame. [I'd really like to just use their brackets from the fork forward as well and will inquire about that.]

The width being 21" means any mounts wouldn't have to extend far to reach it - even frame sliders might be the right size for this. I'll double-check my measurements today to see what that is. So, hopefully it can be pretty sturdy and we work out a way to quickly detach it.

One concern I have separately is DS fitment, where the front wheel and forks are larger. I'll try my hand at the photo overlay unless you can do it easily.
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grindz145

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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #91 on: March 31, 2016, 10:15:02 PM »


The DBL-1 certainly has better lines. The DBL-2 scoops don't bother me, and I might actually open them up. It probably just needs the right color or paint scheme to get a good look, anyway - the classic vintage brown in the photos not to my taste at all.



The problem is that it will affect Cd significantly.

I imagine DS would be pretty similar, but it makes less sense to put this on a DS anyway.

Once I actually pull the trigger I'll make a bracket / installation kit for it so it's easy for other folks, but honestly I expect quite a bit of screwing around / modifying to make it work. Probably a winter 2017 project.

Burton

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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #92 on: March 31, 2016, 11:23:30 PM »

Did you scale the cowl to the bike? It took me a while to do this with the vetter cowl and I had it on hand to measure and take scale pictures from ;)
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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #93 on: March 31, 2016, 11:24:18 PM »

The DBL-1 certainly has better lines. The DBL-2 scoops don't bother me, and I might actually open them up. It probably just needs the right color or paint scheme to get a good look, anyway - the classic vintage brown in the photos not to my taste at all.

The problem is that it will affect Cd significantly.

I imagine DS would be pretty similar, but it makes less sense to put this on a DS anyway.

I have a DS/R and it makes sense to me, and that's all I care about. I suppose I can make the DBL-1 work in that case.

Once I actually pull the trigger I'll make a bracket / installation kit for it so it's easy for other folks, but honestly I expect quite a bit of screwing around / modifying to make it work. Probably a winter 2017 project.

The fact that you're capable of reproducing work will be greatly appreciated.
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grindz145

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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #94 on: March 31, 2016, 11:42:28 PM »


The fact that you're capable of reproducing work will be greatly appreciated.

Assuming of course, that Zero themselves have not run with this particular ball already ;)

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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #95 on: April 01, 2016, 12:48:00 AM »

The fact that you're capable of reproducing work will be greatly appreciated.
Assuming of course, that Zero themselves have not run with this particular ball already ;)

I've heard rumors about a certain third party, but it is difficult to tell what timeline a manufacturer has and what they'll deliver when they're not running an open process. I'm not counting on any help other than making informational inquiries to small manufacturers.
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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #96 on: April 02, 2016, 05:11:39 AM »

The width being 21" means any mounts wouldn't have to extend far to reach it - even frame sliders might be the right size for this. I'll double-check my measurements today to see what that is. So, hopefully it can be pretty sturdy and we work out a way to quickly detach it.

I just realized that no one's quoted the frame width explicitly: it's 12" total, and 10" for the inner cavity for the battery compartment (ignoring clearances). That leaves 4" on each side for the DBL-1 and 4.5" for the DBL-2, just wide enough to shield one's legs and feet for the most part. That also means that the structure to support it is on the measure of "highway pegs" but narrower than the engine guards Zero equips police models with. I'm suddenly ruing the fact that I sold a V-Strom highway footpeg bar just to check for general fit, but that's probably easily fabricated or replaced.

One concern I have separately is DS fitment, where the front wheel and forks are larger. I'll try my hand at the photo overlay unless you can do it easily.

After reviewing the width and swinging the steering to each stop, this doesn't feel like it'll be a concern. Maybe some carving from the bottom will be necessary but not too much. I (DS users) may need to stick with the DBL-2 just to account for full compression of the forks, but I'll double check fit and overall dimensions. The mudguard itself turns with the forks of course and is just below the headlamp so that would carve out some space requirement.

For what it's worth, the compromises of the DBL-2 I am willing to accept given the overall shape of the DS. I know I won't get the range of the S, but that was already true; frontal area being hard to compensate for. I'm willing to go a little slower to have a long range day.
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gasdive

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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #97 on: April 07, 2016, 04:46:23 AM »

I don't want to rain too hard on your parade, but the dustbin fairings you're considering were the exact things that got streamlining banned in motorsport.

They put the centre of pressure ahead of the centre of gravity. Think of throwing a dart backwards. Like that. A string of deaths caused the governing body to say 'enough is enough'. Remember this is a time when they had the IoM as an official round of the GP championship, so they weren't squeamish.

The great thing about the Vetter solution is that the CoP is behind the CoG. He's taken the risks so we don't have to. He even found that adding doors made it too susceptible to cross winds, so we don't need to go down that road. Craig Vetter has done a decade of research on this, we'd be nuts to throw that away and start from a point that we know is dangerous. 
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #98 on: April 07, 2016, 05:14:05 AM »

The great thing about the Vetter solution is that the CoP is behind the CoG. He's taken the risks so we don't have to. He even found that adding doors made it too susceptible to cross winds, so we don't need to go down that road. Craig Vetter has done a decade of research on this, we'd be nuts to throw that away and start from a point that we know is dangerous. 


"We'd be nuts to throw that away", except that very sadly, Vetter is out of action and there's no actual set of remotely complete instructions for mounting his kit (Burton is trying and taking a while for very realistic reasons), it's all DIY and assumes you're a welding fabricator. Also, the tail is completely not specified, just implied from photos.


No one's seriously considering putting a dustbin on without a tail; it's just that the nose is harder to construct and form and happen to be available at a much cheaper price than Vetter's in roughly off the shelf and measurable form. I want Vetter's platform but don't believe anyone's making a replicable kit out of it, and I'm not capable of that and no one's speaking up about working on it (aside from unconfirmed rumors).
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sendler

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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #99 on: April 07, 2016, 05:16:41 AM »

They put the centre of pressure ahead of the centre of gravity.
This is over simplified. A bike has two tires fairly well stuck to the road and corners by counter steering and  leaning. It's not really the same as a dart. Adding side area to a vehicle will always give the wind something more to blow against but  having a dust bin on the front doesn't have to ruin the handling as long as it doesn't generate lift of the front tire. I know it seems counter intuitive but tests on bicycles with a string tugging at them from the side in various places  showed that the best place to focus a side force with minimal consequence was at the steering head where the front end geometry was best activated to self correct for the side force. When applied to the seat post or the back of a rear rack, the bike was easily pulled over and off course. It also helps to keep the side CoP well below the CG on the roll axis to help initiate the counter steering response and lean into the wind by pushing the bottom of the motorcycle over and not the top.
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The main reason the race bikes started to wreck when the aerodynamics were improved with dust bins was just because of the vastly increased top speeds which were way ahead of the primitive tires and brakes of the time.
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gasdive

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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #100 on: April 07, 2016, 11:35:36 AM »

 Oh ok, I had formed the impression that you were going to try for a dustbin with no tail. Sorry about that.

I may have overstated the situation. Some people say that the FIM banned dustbins because they didn't look enough like the bikes on the showroom floor. However there are real issues at play, even with wheels to keep the thing pointed in the right direction. I just wanted to point out that there are known dangers to this, which is why I'd love to see a real live actual aerodynamicist employed at Zero to make something that's light, simple and safe. I think it's telling that Mugen and Motoczysz both avoided the dustbin, despite them being allowed under the IoM rules. I think it's completely possible to create a safe streamliner for the road. Just that I don't think a tail-less 1950 dustbin copy is it.

If you're fully aware of the dangers and happy to go ahead, then that's great. I'd be a complete hypocrite if I said not to. I used to design, build and dive my own rebreathers when the only ones available were military, and if they aren't death machines, nothing is.

Motorcycle Tuning: Chassis
By John Robinson
"A pressure drop between one side and the other will encourage the vehicle to move in the direction of the pressure. However this force acts on the side area and if the centre of pressure is behind the centre of gravity then the vehicle starts to behave like a weather vane and turns towards the high pressure side. A well-balanced vehicle will be self correcting because the pressure force will make it move, say, to the left while the couple set up between the centre of pressure and the steering axis will make it steer to the left and roll to the right and the two will largely cancel one another out. If the centre of pressure is far forward or if there is a large side are - as it might be with the 1950s style dustbin fairings, then high pressure on the side will cause unpredictable combinations of roll and yaw, a possibly unstable situation....Racers developed large frontal fairings in the 1950s and were promptly banned because the forward centre of pressure was thought to make them unstable with any amount of yaw"

http://club.motoczysz.com/?p=453
"There are many debates about why the dustbin (AKA “garbage can”) fairing was ruled illegal in ’57. The reasons range from aesthetics to politics but one of the undisputed reasons is that several crashes were attributed to the dustbins and their negative effect on handling- and that was on a 1957 motorcycle! What made the dustbin fairing dangerous for 50’s era racing motorcycles makes it suicidal for 2010 era racing motorcycles.....There is a place for streamlining. Our joint venture with Bajaj has identified aerodynamics as a project priority and one of the best methods to achieving greater efficiency and range in our project. The original C1 spent time in CFD and actual wind tunnel testing, by no means am I opposed to improved aerodynamics. As efficiency is such a component to electric racing it is easy to see why someone may think this is a good idea but I am certain this same person has no modern day racing experience."
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 12:48:03 PM by gasdive »
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sendler

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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #101 on: April 07, 2016, 05:12:46 PM »

However this force acts on the side area and if the centre of pressure is behind the centre of gravity then the vehicle starts to behave like a weather vane and turns towards the high pressure side.
Very common misconception among many people that should know better.  Trying to yaw the bike around a pivot point of the rear wheel with a long tail like a dart  causes the front steering geometry to  react with gyro precession and translation of the force through the trail to counter steer the tire patch toward the wind which leans and corners the bike with the wind any time the front tire still has traction. The only time a long tail really helps the bike stay straight would be in a high speed/ low traction situation like when running on salt. As Terry has stated above that the truncated tail was a little easier to handle in the wind than the full tail. He has tried it off and on both ways so should know.
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The problem with creating an airfoil shape with full attachment of flow is that you have created an efficient vertical wing that creates lift (side) when side winds shift the apparent vector of the oncoming air stream to give it an angle of attack. This will occur with or without a tail but will be more pronounced the more perfect the airfoil with a tail.
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 Craig found out that venting the the pressure differential across his lap was a big help when he tried closing in one side side of his bike and immediately took the door back off because cross wind performance was worse. I also see that modern faired world bikes such as the CBR250R and R3 have obviously drawn on their companies design experience by incorporating a scoop like shape in the sides windshield/ dash area to vent pressure across the bike. And a second technique which is the implimentation of spoilers via the sharp protrusions at either side of the headlight to spoil the attachment and kill the lift (side) whenever there is a cross wind.
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So here are some recommendations that have come from 5 years of heated debates with some really good engineer types on Ecomodder.com for an aero motorcycle that doesn't get too unruly in cross winds.
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Obviously we would want the most efficient pure airfoil shape draped over the top view of the bike and rider with a concession to an acceptable rear overhang via Kamm truncation at the upper to fit a license plate, tapering down to a more efficient J form behind the wheel at the bottom. There is no stability advantage to a full length tail and it makes the bike difficult to park although a complete pure form all the way to the back is more efficient.
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The side view should also fit the template as posted on Ecomodder with minimal front overhang, as low to the ground as possible while retaining reasonable ground clearance with the exit sweeping up at the template angle to clear driveways.
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Height is the real problem that gives side winds leverage to lean the bike over the wrong way so a low seat height and low over all height is a target. At which point you see most designs must choose head forward or feet forward. Sit up and beg riding positions are the worst for cross winds since the wind can push on a higher area of the rider and their upper body is not anchored to the bike so they get blown over by the wind and the bike follows their lean.
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Design an effective vent across the rider's hands and in front of the battery.
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Add a curved "Y" spoiler rib starting at the stagnation point of the nose and curving up to either side of the wind screen. Effective tests have been done on other dust bin set ups with some 2 inch rope.
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Richard230

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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #102 on: April 07, 2016, 07:55:58 PM »

It sounds like the Dan Gurney Alligator was on the right track.   ;)
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Burton

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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #103 on: April 07, 2016, 11:23:17 PM »

Design an effective vent across the rider's hands and in front of the battery.
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Add a curved "Y" spoiler rib starting at the stagnation point of the nose and curving up to either side of the wind screen. Effective tests have been done on other dust bin set ups with some 2 inch rope.

What do you mean by a "vent across the rider's hands?" The LVF has a turret with a physical buffer where the hands rest which is great for year round riding especially when it is either raining and 33F out or under 25F for keeping your hands warm and dry.

Also do you have any documentation links for the curved Y spolier?
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sendler

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Re: Zero: Please employ an Aerodynamicist.
« Reply #104 on: April 08, 2016, 12:07:47 AM »

A vent would be any open space that allows air to move across from one side of  the bike to the other. Ideally it  would be located at the position of the maximum thickness of the airfoil where the max pressure differential and lift during side winds would occur. Between the hands and the chin, across the lap,  with vents cut into the nose just in front of the battery or radiator, ect. The amount of air gust that I feel ripping across my lap when I ride my PCX (which has a nice, aero nose) in windy weather is astonishing. It makes me think that an area of up to 2 square feet might be required to really make a difference in venting away the lift (side) of a streamliner.
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Here is a diagram showing how side winds combine with the headwind of a fast moving streamliner.
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And this is how a spoiler can break the attached flow to diminish lift when the streamliner is attacked from an angle while being generally invisible to drag when no side wind is present. The ribs could be out of the way of the headlight and windshield yet still be following flow lines as they diverge toward the top corners of the windscreen. Experiments could be done by gluing tubing into place.
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