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Author Topic: Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?  (Read 2334 times)

qorw

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Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?
« on: February 03, 2016, 02:24:06 AM »

I am taking delivery of my Zero DS 11.4 in a few days time and have been in contact with the manufacturer in the USA (without much luck) regarding a solar PV charge option for the Zero. As I see it one should be able to get an off-board aux DC-DC charger for the bike and use it just like the Delta-Q charger; BUT the Zero sales manager says its impossible!?

Sounds a bit crazy to put up 4 x 300W solar PV panels and convert their DC output to AC with an expensive inverter just to have the Delta-Q off-board charger convert the AC back to DC to charge the Zero's batteries!?

I even emailed Delta-Q to ask them why they don't sell an MPPT type PV solar panel charger for the Zero's batteries? No Reply (PS there are other LiIoPho4 battery suppliers who will gladly sell you a solar PV MPPT charger for their batteries, so common Zero, please get your minds to this.)

I live in Cape Town South Africa, have a 36km commute into town and can leave the bike charging in the great african sunshine for the whole day before hopping back on it to make the trip home... even in winter (coldest it gets is 7 deg C .... with still about 300 Watt per sqm sunshine)

All I need is a Delta-Q solar charger :-) please...
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 02:35:34 AM by qorw »
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MrDude_1

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Re: Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2016, 03:50:42 AM »

I know it sounds wasteful, but I really would have the panels charge some deep cycle batteries.... and then use the batteries to run a inverter for the onboard charger. It can be a cheap one as the onboard charger just rectifies it.  If you can find a 1500w or higher rated DC-DC converter that will reach 150v or higher and is more efficient, you can use that and plug it into the onboard charger. It will work on a DC voltage.

At peak, if the cells match their ratings, you have only 1200w to work with. The stock onboard charger is 1300w according to zero. I dont know if thats output, or input, but in either case running it directly off the cells without the battery is a no-go. You may need a 5th panel for this to work long term.

edit:
another option is a DC-DC power supply with current/voltage limiting.. just set it for a max voltage of 116.2 or slightly less, and make it plug into the aux charger port.  But if you want to keep your warranty intact and not mess around with it too much, I would just go for the onboard charger.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 03:53:27 AM by MrDude_1 »
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Doug S

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Re: Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2016, 05:37:58 AM »

Many, if not most, power supplies use a full-wave bridge as the first component the line voltage encounters, which "rectifies" it into an unregulated DC voltage with a lot of ripple. The supply then filters it and powers the load (and runs its internal circuitry) from that rough DC source. The reason that's important is that the full-wave bridge will run equally well off of a single polarity (DC), provided it's up-sized somewhat because only two of the four diodes is utilized when running it that way.

The upshot is that it's pretty easy to make a supply that's capable of running off of either AC or DC, provided of course the voltage is within proper limits in either case, and many supplies are designed that way for the sake of flexibility -- generally speaking, all it costs is an up-rated rectifier bridge. I know this is common in rack-mounted server supplies, some of which are pretty hefty (I have two 3kW supplies rated for AC and DC operation sitting on my workbench at home). In fact, Brandon (Electric Cowboy) recently verified that the new DigiNow charger works that way, and will be able to run off of a CHAdeMO station.

So I'm thinking the DigiNow charger would do what you want, if you make sure the solar array supplies adequate current at an appropriate voltage. Other chargers might very well work also, though you might have to have some rather lengthy conversations with the manufacturer to verify this "off-data-sheet" operation.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 07:19:56 AM by Doug S »
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qorw

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Re: Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2016, 02:56:45 PM »

Thank you all for the replies. BUT, we must be very careful about these suggested approached because the Zero's batteries are highly managed through a BMS (Battery Management System) which controls the charger (via direct signals or CAN bus) so you may damage your bike by just connecting any old charger to it's batteries!

The best way is for Zero's current on-board (and off-board) charger supplier to develop and sell a DC to DC solar charger that integrates with the bike's BMS.
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MrDude_1

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Re: Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2016, 08:29:51 PM »

Thank you all for the replies. BUT, we must be very careful about these suggested approached because the Zero's batteries are highly managed through a BMS (Battery Management System) which controls the charger (via direct signals or CAN bus) so you may damage your bike by just connecting any old charger to it's batteries!

The best way is for Zero's current on-board (and off-board) charger supplier to develop and sell a DC to DC solar charger that integrates with the bike's BMS.

I think you need to look a bit more into how all this works.
The system isnt as fragile and complex as you think it is... as long as you're slamming in electrons, and you are not doing it at too high a rate, you're fine. Its not magic. It only seems like magic if you dont understand how it all works.

if anything, the BMS makes it simpler...

In anycase, like I alluded to and Doug just said... the chargers just rectify the input power anyway... The reason I say about 150v DC is because the charger runs fine on 110v AC.. and that rectifies to about 155v DC. It will work on 150v DC without issue... it also will go lower, but now that they have the new power supply instead of the meanwells, I dont know their lower limit.


since you are not asking about high power charging... just run the stock charger.  have the solar cells charge a few batteries, and have the batteries run the inverter. easy.
another way, if you dont want an inverter is to have 10 batteries in series for 130v or so...but then you need 10 solar panels or some kind of isolator to charge...
either way, it costs money.
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qorw

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Re: Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2016, 08:57:37 PM »

Wow, no! that would make solar charging completely nonviable. One would pay more for such a system than the bike would ever consume in power!

You may want to read the thread on the Zero's batteries. In order to get the maximum out of a LiIonPho4 (or in this case LiCobalt batteries) each cell must be carefully monitored and controlled when charging. The BMS together with the charger do this and that is why Zero can offer 100 000 mile warranty on the battery pack (and cycle rates in the 1000-2000's lasting up to 8-10 yrs potentially).

To make solar charging viable the DC, directly from the panel, must be fed to the Zero's battery pack by a suitable charger under the control of the BMS, not stored separately in another set of battery and converted DC to AC to DC by an expensive inverter.

BTW the Zero auxiliary charge is a 1000W 72V DC charger, not 150V. A 300W PV panel puts out 36V DC and 8A so one needs only two of those in series to get the 72VDC to charge the pack (more in parallel to increase the amps and reduce the charge time)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 09:05:06 PM by qorw »
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MrDude_1

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Re: Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2016, 09:03:22 PM »

Wow, no! that would make solar charging completely nonviable. One would pay more for such a system than the bike would ever consume in power!

You may want to read the thread on the Zero's batteries. In order to get the maximum out of a LiIonPho4 (or in this case LiCobalt batteries) each cell must be carefully monitored and controlled when charging. The BMS together with the charger do this and that is why Zero can offer 100 000 mile warranty on the battery pack (and cycle rates in the 1000-2000's lasting up to 8-10 yrs potentially).

To make solar charging viable the DC, directly from the panel, must be fed to the Zero's battery pack by a suitable charger under the control of the BMS, not stored separately in another set of battery and converted DC to AC to DC by an expensive inverter.

lol, not only did I read that thread, but I actually build BMS systems.
I think you're missing the point, but only because we're going over your head.

I'll try to break down the power flow a bit for you, but I dont want to type it all on my phone. I'll post up a bit of the how and why we're suggesting what we are when I get home.
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qorw

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Re: Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2016, 09:08:10 PM »

No Problem, please don't hold back on the technicalities, I am a qualified professional electrical engineer.

(PS how can you be sure the Zero on board charger uses a diode rectifier bridge and not SCR or something else?)

(PS PS Vdc = (2 x Vrms x sqrt(2))/pi which means for a 110VAC into a rectifier bridge you only get out 99VDC, not 155VDC)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2016, 09:30:11 PM by qorw »
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MrDude_1

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Re: Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2016, 12:48:40 AM »

The overall scheme of charging on Zeros bikes is BMS monitored Bulk Charging. Identical to what electric bicycles do.


Ok, so the BMS is connected to each cell in the battery. It is always on, always watching, but very simple.
The BMS basically has 2 things it can control. 1 bleed off resistor on for each cell, and the contactor.

The flow of charging is identical regardless if you're using the onboard charger or an external one.
The BMS gets the "charger connected" command (It's just two pins connecting) and if everything is ok, it turns on the contactor.

The BMS does not regulate the power flow into the battery. It simply monitors it.
The power flow is regulated by the charger. The charger is nothing more than very simple CC/CV power supply.
The power supply is set for the full voltage of the battery when each cell is at 4.15v. With the 28 cell battery, the zeros full charge is 116.2v

First let’s look just from the charger.
When the battery is very low, the charger will hit is current limiter, and stay there. As it stays there at that set amperage, the voltage slowly rises as the battery charges. Eventually the battery voltage reaches 116.2.
Once this happens, the voltage remains constant, but the current starts dropping... it drops further and further. Once the current drops into the milliamp range, the battery is fully charged.
Any CC/CV  power supply that doesn’t hiccup or crowbar itself when it hits its current limit will work. Earlier zero motorcycles used meanwell power supplies, similar to the ones I use to charge my homemade EVs.
(Btw, CC/CV stands for constant current and constant voltage)

Most power supplies for this use a buck power supply design. This means it can step the voltage down (and current up) but if the voltage is too low to start with, they cannot "boost" it up.
The first step in all of these supplies is to rectify the AC voltage to DC. You said you were an electrical engineer, but in case someone else is reading this, I'll mention AC to DC for a second.

DC power is measured in volts. It is really simple as it is just one set number. X volts.
AC power is commonly referred to in RMS voltage, but it’s actually never 1 set number. The voltage "alternates" between a positive number, drops down to zero, then keeps going to a negative number... and then it repeats.
To get that 1 number for an AC voltage we, are actually getting an average. This is the Root Mean Square. There are other numbers like Peak-to-Peak, but most of the time an AC voltage is written as the RMS.
If you want more info on any of this, Google the terms I mentioned above... they're cool to know.

Now, when you convert AC to DC with full-wave rectification, you are taking that AC voltage and making it a DC signal that pulses up and down.  If you put a few caps on there, it evens out and makes a stable voltage.
If you take the AC voltage, and multiply it by 1.414 you will get the DC voltage. If you doubt me on this, Google "RMS AC to DC voltage". There are all kinds of pages that teach this much better than I could. It’s worth knowing if you have any interest in how this works.

So your household 120v is really feeding that power supply 170vDC (120*1.414= 169.68) in North America... and 340vDC elsewhere (240*1.414)
If you look at most of these power supplies, you will see that they take both AC and DC with the AC range of 90 or 100 to 250 or 260...  But their DC range is much higher. This is because of what I said above. It’s all the same power.
The only catch is that running them on DC only uses half the rectifier... however this isn’t an issue on most modern supplies, since they have such a large input range. Just remember that higher input voltage is always better, because it lowers the amperage.


Ok. All that said, what does it mean?
It means almost any CC/CV power supply, set to the proper voltage, and kept under the max amperage (100a in your case) will work to charge the battery.
It means that same supply needs an input voltage over 116.2v to operate or you need a supply with a boost stage. You would have to buy a full buck/boost power supply.



We are trying to charge off of cheap 6/12/18/24v batteries. Why batteries and not directly off the solar cells?  The short answer is consistency.
Solar panels have to deal with clouds, dust, and weather in general. Even when there is enough light to maintain the same voltage, the amperage available is constantly changing. This causes issues with most power supplies. They like to see a nice steady DC input, and they work very hard to clean up the AC signal coming in to make it a reasonable DC starting point.
So, by having the panels charge the batteries, we can use very cheap off the shelf parts to have them keep the batteries topped off... and then run the charger off a nice stable battery source.


Now we have two options.
1. Find a boosting CC/CV power supply. I have never found a commercial one, but I am sure one exists somewhere.
2. Generate the boost ourselves with cheap, common, off-the-shelf parts... then feed that boosted voltage into a regular charger.


Method 1 is a non-starter for me. I could design a supply to do it, but it would probably be a yearlong project and I wouldn’t want to do it.

Method 2 is pretty simple. Use a cheap inverter. Not a perfect sine wave high quality one, but a cheap "2000w" or more Chinese inverter. Anything that can handle the constant 1300w demand. I have one I used for years, I think it cost me 20 dollars US. It’s only rated for 800 continuous, but I pull 1250 from it continuous according to my kill-a-watt meter. I run 2 laptops, a phone charger and a camera charger off it at the same time for about 2 hours.
Now before you dismiss this "turning to AC and back to DC" again... think about this. In order to boost the voltage from your battery bank level to the charging level, you NEED to convert it to AC anyway. All boost converters convert DC to AC, then up the AC voltage.  If you are making AC anyway, why not make it useful as AC for everything else?
Now I realize that most of the world works on 220-240vac and not 120vac that we use here in the US. This may make a large difference in how expensive inverters are. If so, don’t worry, your Zero will run off the lower US AC voltage, so you can order a "US spec" one from china.
Now there’s only one problem with that. My wife is from South Africa as well. I don’t know if things have changed, but from what she has been telling me, getting something mailed or posted to you can be difficult. On top of that, the rolling brownouts make inverters very expensive. I don’t know if that applies to you, but if it does, I understand your pain. It sucks when you cannot mail-order stuff like we can in the states.
Another nice thing about method 2 is you can use the outlet for anything else that plugs into the wall.  Just be aware that if you pull more power than the solar panels provide, you will deplete the batteries over time.




That brings me to my next suggestion... panel size.
You said you have 1200watts of panels. This is less than the stock charger. Plus, most panels are overrated anyway.
That means that you need to either run a smaller external charger that provides less than 1200watts... or you need to run the internal charger on a timer so that the batteries get a chance to recharge.
I don’t like either of these options... so my choice would be to add another panel. One extra panel will not only allow you to charge at full internal charger speed, but it will also ensure the batteries stay topped up when the weather isn’t ideal.



All this was the quick thinking behind my recommendation to run batteries, an inverter, and one extra panel.




Now, on to how the BMS works.
If the overall voltage goes out of range, it opens the contactor and disconnects the battery. This is rare and shouldn’t ever happen.
If a single cell reaches its top charge, the BMS will apply a load with the bleed off resistor. This load will discharge the cell and keep the cell at the same fully charged voltage of 4.15v.
As each cell comes up to peak more and more watts are being converted to heat via the resistor. This is why it is important to not set your bulk charger too high.
If it overheats, it disconnects the contactor.

It all works off of zeros principle of simplicity. There really isn’t a whole lot to the theory of it...


Cliff notes:

1. Dont worry about how the BMS works. Just feed the bike the power at the proper voltage/amperage, either through the charger, or directly.
2. You need a stable power source that has enough wattage to sustain the charger. Batteries will be required for solar.
3. No matter what you do, you will have some form of inverter in the system to raise the voltage.

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MrDude_1

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Re: Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2016, 12:57:16 AM »

(PS how can you be sure the Zero on board charger uses a diode rectifier bridge and not SCR or something else?)
Well the meanwell ones I have personally taken apart. The newer one (whos name escapes me at the moment) will work with DC from what was already posted...


(PS PS Vdc = (2 x Vrms x sqrt(2))/pi which means for a 110VAC into a rectifier bridge you only get out 99VDC, not 155VDC)
You can double check the math,  I may have my calc number backwards... but the concept remains valid. lol.
its been awhile since I had to do anything AC. I work with microcontrollers mostly.


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Doug S

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Re: Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2016, 02:13:02 AM »

(PS PS Vdc = (2 x Vrms x sqrt(2))/pi which means for a 110VAC into a rectifier bridge you only get out 99VDC, not 155VDC)
[/quote]

Uh, no. Not sure where you got your equation, but for full-wave rectification, Vdcpeak = sqrt(2) * Vrms, so 115VAC will give 163Vdc when rectified.

Trust us, we're EEs.  ;D
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MrDude_1

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Re: Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2016, 03:21:32 AM »

Uh, no. Not sure where you got your equation, but for full-wave rectification, Vdcpeak = sqrt(2) * Vrms, so 115VAC will give 163Vdc when rectified.
Trust us, we're EEs.  ;D
thanks.. a quick google check of sqrt(2) confirmed my memory.

I always shorten it to 1.414 and memorize it in my head as fourteen-fourteen... but I am horrible at remembering numbers. lol.
VDC = 1.414*VAC   (assuming AC voltage is RMS)
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Testpilot1

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qorw

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Re: Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2016, 01:48:54 PM »

Thanks MrDude, that is very helpful and what I expected from the BMS.

On the issues of number of panels - I dont need to recharge the bike from 0 to 100%, only replenish the 36km ride from home to the office (@ about 100W/km that means I only need to recharge about 3,6kWh of the 11.4kWh battery pack and over 6 hrs of sunlight that is 600W which can be achieved with two panels {ideal world} - to account for losses and derating I agree one would need to add more)

As for the CC/CV regulator issue (and voltage boost), the solar industry has various "solar chargers" which do exactly that, ie make sure the voltage output from the PV panel(s) is constant to the load and delivers as much current as what the cells can generate - options are MPPT, "solar boost" etc)

Then I am still not convinced of the suggested non-conventional way of feeding DC into the AC input of the Zero's DeltaQ charger. A quick read of the DeltaQ manual from their website says that their charger can be controlled by the BMS (not just a on-off contactor, but constant voltage AND charging profile) AND they have AC input monitoring, which implies that if one feeds it DC that does not comply to voltage or frequency expectations the charger will switch itself off to protect it!?)

For those unsure of the VAC to VDC calculation see the attached jpeg. (I also just reviewed an email from Zero saying they use the DeltaQ QuiQ1000 for the off-board charging, and that outputs 96VDC - so it figures {correction to my earlier statement of 72V. And so 3 x 36V PV panels in series would be required})

So alas, I still think the answer is for DeltaQ to develop a charger (based on their existing models and with the same features) but with a DC input that uses the same MPPT technology as the solar PV world does. If Mastervolt can do it, so can DeltaQ (see second attached jpeg)

Great discussion nevertheless, thank you all for your input, much appreciated.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2016, 03:42:46 PM by qorw »
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SolarMeter

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Re: Solar PV Charge station for my DS ?
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2016, 09:56:32 AM »

Great ideas on this thread.  I totally agree that Delta-Q needs to develop an MPPT solar charge controller for lithium ion battery packs, especially for the Zero motorcycle.  I don't think Zero motorcycles realizes what an incredible selling point this would be for their motorcycles. 
One of the issues with using a solar DC-to-AC charger-to-Delta-Q charger is that the output of the solar array must always be greater than the power draw of the Delta-Q charger, otherwise the charger will drop off due to low-voltage.  The main purpose of the Delta-Q charger is to ensure that the battery cells don't get over-charged and that they are all topped off near their maximum voltage when the charging cycle ends (balanced).  The Delta-Q essentially needs to be a maximum power point tracker (MPPT) to manage the output voltage of the solar array, combined with their existing lithium ion battery management system (BMS).
I don't know of a way to replicate their BMS system to keep the battery from overcharging, but it may be possible to charge the Zero battery with a solar array using a DC-to-DC MPPT.  The idea is to use the solar MPPT to charge the battery, but only charge the battery in such a way to keep the cells below their maximum allowable setpoint.  I've done it on a lithium ion pack I mounted on an electric go-kart I made.   There are some expensive MPPT from Outback Power, but I thought I might try an inexpensive one I found from China ($30). 
Input Voltage: DC 12-60V     
Output Voltage: DC 15-90V, Adjustable to accommodate 24V/36V/48V/60V/72V Battery, which should work for my 2010 Zero's 55-Volt battery.
Output Current: 0-10A Adjustable
Output Power: 20-600W
Working Modes: MPPT and DC-DC
http://www.tomtop.com/mppt-solar-panel-battery-regulator-charge-controller-with-lcd-color-display-24-36-48-60-72v-10a-compatible-dc-dc-boost-charge-function-h16929.html

I've got a 165 Watt, 45 volt solar module that I thought I'd try it with.  I will monitor the battery voltage and unplug it before it gets too high. It will take over a month for the MPPT charger to get here, but I figured for $30 its worth a try.
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