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[Lipo423]

@NEW2Elec: Thanks for explaining my shorthand. And I probably owe MostlyBonkers an apology for a public reproach (though I thought it was pretty mild).

I think we were all very excited when we found this forum, and for many of us it came out as many and frequent postings. That's great, enthusiasm for our field should be encouraged!

But I have to admit I get a little frustrated when I log on after a couple days' absence and have to sift through 90 mostly just chatty postings to see if there's real new information. There are over 2000 members on this forum (though I'm sure not all active), and the signal-to-noise ratio could get very high very fast if we don't show some restraint. I sincerely hope this stays a reasonably technical forum, not a facebook-style social space.

I don't by any means want to discourage people from posting -- quite the contrary! I got impatient and said something in public I shouldn't have. As I said to Bonkers when he contacted me privately (which is how my original message should have been), if you have something to say, by all means, say it! If you have a question, by all means, ask it! And if you have any sort of information that may be of use to anybody else, please share it! But if it's effectively just "hey guys, wanted to say hi and that I still love electric motorcycles!", perhaps that sort of message should be toned down after the "new" wears off.

I do apologize for losing my patience, Bonkers, and for making my comment public. I really hope I haven't offended you or anybody else. We're all entitled to our stupid opinions. 

I got pretty upset (to say the least) with some of the replies Bonkers got a few weeks ago...and although I said I disagreed with some of his ideas/rational, it was pretty bad as it showed a total lack of respect for him. Disappointing. I asked to these individuals to apology, none did.

As a good latin, sometimes I make statements which I regret afterwards...and I apologize, nobody is perfect, but it makes a big difference. 
By no means you reached such level in your comments, and you have apologized, also with a good rational behind.

A few beers as suggested by NEW2elec will resolve this in a very effective way...if you guys ever show up in Barcelona, I'm buying!!

It looks like we have a gentleman in the forum. Thanks Doug 

[MostlyBonkers]

Thank you Lipo. Barcelona? I'd love to go there one day. It may be in a few years and on a (hopefully) a more modern Zero with fairing and fast charging built in, but it would be great to take you up on that offer! Of course, if any of you get an opportunity to visit London, then the same offer stands.

It's all water under the bridge now as far as I'm concerned. I've learnt a few lessons now, which means we can all move on. Harmony and balance will be restored. [emoji4]

[Lipo423]

I you ever show up (as anyone else) you will be welcomed...(actually a forum member from Australia came to Barcelona with his family last year (great people by the way). We had a lovely tapas dinner altogether 

I used to travel to London some time ago...will let you know if I have any plans again

Zero has got a dealer in Barcelona, so you might be able to ride electric 

[kingcharles]

With ICE bikes you need to warm up the engine before going full power.
With electric bikes you need to warm up the batteries to go full power.

That's one of the features that Zero should copy from Brammo in their new models: battery heaters!

[grmarks]

I tested my 2015 SR out the other day (about 24 degrees C) after I had ridden 220 km (speed was below 60km/h the whole trip). At 8% SOC it accelerated to 100km/h no problem (it seemed to have full acceleration, no power cut back that I could feel). I got it to 120km/h no worries. At 6% I could feel the power was cut back to about a standard S. At 4% it just got to 113km/h (just). At 2% it couldn't do 113km/h but I got it to 100km/h (only just). Just when I expected it to drop to 1% it went strait to 0% but sill predicted I had 9km of rage left??? At 0% I could still do > 60km/h.
My SR is nothing like you describe! Maybe its all down to the temp of your batter pack. My bike lives inside the house so it's battery is always warm, even if it drops to 2 or 3 degrees C over night the battery will be at 15 degrees C or so.     

[MostlyBonkers]

Thanks grmarks, some great info there.

I think we can safely conclude that battery temperature is a much bigger variable for performance versus state of charge.  To be fair to Doug though, I think firmware updates over the years have probably changed the behavior somewhat.

The good thing is that even on cold mornings I can rely on my Zero to do motorway speeds.

I'm looking forward to resuming my commute on my Zero now that it's back in action.

[MostlyBonkers]

Keep in mind that the motor controller throttles back the amount of power available, starting at a surprisingly high SoC. I've never cracked open the firmware on my bike (though I am an EE and could easily do so, I just have no interest in doing it), but other people have posted that the throttling back starts as high as 70% SoC, and my experience does show that there is some reduction in power available even well above 50%. At 50%, available power is reduced again, and you'll find you won't be able to pull more than about 75 mph on level ground. At 20% SoC, power is reduced to the "limp-home" value and you'll only be able to maintain about 20 mph on the flat...a steep enough uphill can stall you. I'm not sure how this relates to mode, or if it does...it may just be maximum values laid out for all modes.

It's not clear to me if this is done to protect the batteries (whose safe maximum discharge rate is at least somewhat dependent on SoC), or to try to help the rider get home. If it's the former reason, I'm okay with it, if it's the latter reason, I'd just as soon make those decisions myself. I suspect it may be some combination of the two.

The weather is warmer since I started this topic and with some more experience under my belt I have to say that Doug wasn't far off with his comments above.  Above 70% SoC the log entries look like this:

02806  2016-04-10 17:18:05  Riding - pack: h 22C, l 21C, 101.974V, 74% SOC | motor: 89C, 2940rpm | controller: 42C, | power delivery: battery 207A, motor 20A
02807  2016-04-10 17:19:05  Riding - pack: h 22C, l 21C, 105.336V, 73% SOC | motor: 89C, 1884rpm | controller: 41C, | power delivery: battery 24A, motor 53A

Below 70% SoC, they start looking like this:

02812  2016-04-10 17:21:05  Riding - pack: h 23C, l 22C, 98.929V, 69% SOC | motor: 112C, 4889rpm | controller: 62C, | power delivery: battery 176A, motor 149A
02813  2016-04-10 17:21:05  Battery discharge current limited to 580A

If you own an SR, which has a 660A controller, then it is effectively limiting it's maximum draw from the battery to less than it's maximum capacity.  However, that isn't necessarily going to result in reduced performance.  In the example above, the draw on the battery is only 176A at that moment in time.  If the rider were to stop and do a 0-60 when below 70% SoC, it *might* take a little longer than from a full charge.  Whether or not the rider would notice is debatable.

If you own an S or DS, which has a 440A controller, then you'll be getting maximum performance down to a much lower SoC.

02901  2016-04-10 17:52:05  Riding - pack: h 31C, l 29C, 96.843V, 29% SOC | motor: 71C, 3689rpm | controller: 32C, | power delivery: battery 118A, motor 118A
02902  2016-04-10 17:52:05  Battery discharge current limited to 429A
02903  2016-04-10 17:53:05  Riding - pack: h 31C, l 30C, 98.997V, 27% SOC | motor: 72C, 3176rpm | controller: 31C, | power delivery: battery 203A, motor 191A
02904  2016-04-10 17:53:05  Battery discharge current limited to 403A
02905  2016-04-10 17:54:05  Riding - pack: h 31C, l 30C, 98.978V, 27% SOC | motor: 71C, 2069rpm | controller: 30C, | power delivery: battery 219A, motor 188A
02906  2016-04-10 17:54:05  Battery discharge current limited to 422A

The battery has dropped below 30% SoC in the extract above and this is where the battery discharge current is limited to less than 440A.  Here are some further entries as I got to the end of this particular journey:

02955  2016-04-10 18:19:05  Riding - pack: h 32C, l 30C, 95.813V, 12% SOC | motor: 63C, 1101rpm | controller: 27C, | power delivery: battery 7A, motor 29A
02956  2016-04-10 18:19:05  Battery discharge current limited to 264A
02957  2016-04-10 18:20:05  Riding - pack: h 32C, l 30C, 95.176V, 11% SOC | motor: 65C, 2653rpm | controller: 29C, | power delivery: battery 227A, motor 220A
02958  2016-04-10 18:20:05  Battery discharge current limited to 181A
02959  2016-04-10 18:21:05  Riding - pack: h 32C, l 30C, 95.262V, 11% SOC | motor: 66C, 1506rpm | controller: 28C, | power delivery: battery 230A, motor 188A
02960  2016-04-10 18:21:05  Battery discharge current limited to 195A
02961  2016-04-10 18:22:05  Riding - pack: h 32C, l 30C, 95.073V, 11% SOC | motor: 66C, 97rpm | controller: 27C, | power delivery: battery 0A, motor 0A
02962  2016-04-10 18:22:05  Battery discharge current limited to 227A
02963  2016-04-10 18:23:05  Riding - pack: h 32C, l 30C, 95.276V, 11% SOC | motor: 61C, 0rpm | controller: 26C, | power delivery: battery 0A, motor 0A
02964  2016-04-10 18:23:05  Battery discharge current limited to 242A
02965  2016-04-10 18:23:12  b'DEBUG: Module scheme changed from Running mode to Stopped mode'

There is a noticeable drop in performance at this point. 

On my way home I have a couple of stretches of high speed roads where my SoC is consistently under 30%.  My speed is restricted to 80mph on these sections, sometimes less.  Generally speaking though, I can count on reaching 70mph until I'm well under 20% SoC.  That happens to be the national speed limit on motorways here in the UK, so I think that's pretty good.

I've also ridden a few times in freezing temperatures since then and at high SoC the bike managed 80mph or more.  So I take back what I said in my last post.  I've no doubt that temperature does have an effect, but even in warm weather, SoC is a very significant variable when it comes to how much current the battery can deliver.  I can only speak for 2014 models though.  The battery design and chemistry develops every year and so I'm sure 2015/6 models will behave differently.  From others' posts on this forum it sounds like the batteries keep performing well much lower down the SoC curve.

I suppose what matters most is that it doesn't bother me at all when I'm riding.  I'm only really posting this to give credit to Doug and set things straight.

[MostlyBonkers]

Just to confuse matters further, the last couple of evenings have been really cold here in the UK. I arrived at the M25 with 32% SoC last night and the bike wouldn't go over 70mph. It had dropped to about 67 when I reached the exit after a couple of miles. On my final stretch of fast road the bike was doing about 63mph with about 18% SoC.

The sudden snap of cold weather has definitely reduced the maximum power delivered at certain charge levels. I could tell by the ride even without noting the figures.

It'll be interesting to see the difference on hot days when they eventually get here!

[manitou]

Are the 2014's the 11.4kw battery?  Are they being swapped out for 12.5's like the 2013's?
I'm very curious to see how my '13 behaves after the battery swap. In particular how much performance is cut when the charge gets low. (70mph constant until just a few blocks from my place. Was scarey having to ride the shoulder at 40-50mph once when I was low.. Still made it home, but was crawling)

[MostlyBonkers]

The 14's are 11.4kwh but I think the cells are different so they aren't being swapped. That must be costing a fortune! It's good that they're doing it.

Hopefully you'll get a firmware update and you'll notice a big difference all round.