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[Richard230]

One thing you should consider is, based upon my experience, if you run the battery down below 20% it will take much longer than expected to fully recharge.  When I ran my PT-equipped Zero down to 0%, it took about 6 hours of charging to get the power level back up to 20% and then another 8 hours to fully recharge the pack. I didn't expect that.  But fortunately I was at home and didn't need to ride the bike until the following morning.

[Doug S]

Keep in mind that the motor controller throttles back the amount of power available, starting at a surprisingly high SoC. I've never cracked open the firmware on my bike (though I am an EE and could easily do so, I just have no interest in doing it), but other people have posted that the throttling back starts as high as 70% SoC, and my experience does show that there is some reduction in power available even well above 50%. At 50%, available power is reduced again, and you'll find you won't be able to pull more than about 75 mph on level ground. At 20% SoC, power is reduced to the "limp-home" value and you'll only be able to maintain about 20 mph on the flat...a steep enough uphill can stall you. I'm not sure how this relates to mode, or if it does...it may just be maximum values laid out for all modes.

It's not clear to me if this is done to protect the batteries (whose safe maximum discharge rate is at least somewhat dependent on SoC), or to try to help the rider get home. If it's the former reason, I'm okay with it, if it's the latter reason, I'd just as soon make those decisions myself. I suspect it may be some combination of the two.

Also, Bonkers, if you didn't continuously go totally OCD all over this forum, you'd probably be more likely to receive answers to your serious questions when you ask them. I think there are a lot of people who have completely tuned you out by now, and I'm pretty close to doing so myself. Enthusiastic exuberance is a good thing, but only to a point.

[MostlyBonkers]

I've slept on your final paragraph Doug. For starters, I'm not OCD. Secondly, I hate bullshit and misinformation. Mostly, I hate the misperception that those two things create. It's what motivates me to post prolifically on this forum. It will ebb and flow as I'm in the honeymoon period with my Zero at the moment.

A few have said they'd be interested in hearing about my experiences. Whilst I have the energy, I'll continue. If people want to tune out, they can. Don't try and shut me down though.  Just unsubscribe to this topic and ignore it if that's what you want to do.

I think you're wrong about the controller cutting power so aggressively depending on the state of charge. Certainly at very low states of charge. Possibly higher when it's very cold, but not in general use. Time will tell and I'll report my findings.

Fortunately this forum is mostly free of bullshit. There are a few people who don't like potentially thorny subjects being raised. It's all in the spirit of getting to the bottom of things, discovering the truth and giving those that would like to take the leap a clearer perspective.  Having forums like this helps keep the manufacturers honest too. I'm looking at you VW! Zero seem pretty sound from what I can gather. That's why I bought one. The claimed range figures are way out though and it isn't right even though everyone else overestates them. Why not understate and have happy customers?

[grmarks]

Keep in mind that the motor controller throttles back the amount of power available, starting at a surprisingly high SoC. I've never cracked open the firmware on my bike (though I am an EE and could easily do so, I just have no interest in doing it), but other people have posted that the throttling back starts as high as 70% SoC, and my experience does show that there is some reduction in power available even well above 50%. At 50%, available power is reduced again, and you'll find you won't be able to pull more than about 75 mph on level ground. At 20% SoC, power is reduced to the "limp-home" value and you'll only be able to maintain about 20 mph on the flat...a steep enough uphill can stall you. I'm not sure how this relates to mode, or if it does...it may just be maximum values laid out for all modes.

That has not been my experience. I rode 126 km (round trip, no power tank) and on the ride home I did 100km/h on the final 10 km. I got home and SOC was 17% no power cut back that I could notice and definatly no "limp home" condition (unless 100km/h is "limp home").
70mph is faster than 100kph so I would not notice any cut back but you would think I would see the "limp home" condition for the last 3% (20% down to 17%) but I didn't.

[MostlyBonkers]

The night before last, I got home with 69% left. It was a cold night with frost and the SoC had dropped to 62% when I keyed the bike on in the morning. Normally there's no drop.  The battery temperature was reported as 9C, but it can't have been much more than 0C as the air temperature was only 2-3C at the time.

The bike wouldn't do more than 70mph on the motorway with a slight incline. There was no headwind today. The battery power maxed at 20kWh, half the controller's capacity.

I can't help but think that cell temperature has the biggest influence over the voltage and current they can deliver. I would guess that the controller must be able to detect the battery pack's ability to provide power based on the voltage drop versus the current. State of Charge will affect that ability too as Doug alluded to.

I just need to wait for another cold morning to see what the bike manages at a higher SoC. I'll also try the same run from a lower SoC on a warmer day and report back.

I had hoped that the cell temperature would rise sufficiently under use that the chemistry would start working better and starting off with a cold battery pack wouldn't be much of an issue. That certainly wasn't the case after five miles, worth about half of that at speed. The indicated temperature had started to rise, but it probably takes longer for the cells to warm sufficiently. By that time I would have been in the city part of my commute.

[stevewp]

Is your bike garaged Bonkers? I'd be surprised if it got that cold in a garage.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

[kensiko]

Ride safe! Be careful with Sport Mode if there's a chance of ice or patchy oily pavement. If the wheel slips, you'll hear the motor spin up a bit; just ease off the throttle if it happens and it should recover. [I've experienced this in Seattle.]

I like that they kept the crash bars on the bike for you. They're a good safety feature and you can mount lighting or such to them.

Regarding cold, maybe we'll see people making "cozies" for the controller or battery to keep the range up.

I bought a heated blanket for mine, works great

[MostlyBonkers]

I keep it in my back garden under a cover.

[Lipo423]

Keep in mind that the motor controller throttles back the amount of power available, starting at a surprisingly high SoC. I've never cracked open the firmware on my bike (though I am an EE and could easily do so, I just have no interest in doing it), but other people have posted that the throttling back starts as high as 70% SoC, and my experience does show that there is some reduction in power available even well above 50%. At 50%, available power is reduced again, and you'll find you won't be able to pull more than about 75 mph on level ground. At 20% SoC, power is reduced to the "limp-home" value and you'll only be able to maintain about 20 mph on the flat...a steep enough uphill can stall you. I'm not sure how this relates to mode, or if it does...it may just be maximum values laid out for all modes.

That has not been my experience. I rode 126 km (round trip, no power tank) and on the ride home I did 100km/h on the final 10 km. I got home and SOC was 17% no power cut back that I could notice and definatly no "limp home" condition (unless 100km/h is "limp home").
70mph is faster than 100kph so I would not notice any cut back but you would think I would see the "limp home" condition for the last 3% (20% down to 17%) but I didn't.

+1 Never had such cutout…(below 20%), my bike behaves ok speed wise, however I do agree about the power reduction just a little above 50% SOC, or below

I also read Doug comment on Bonkers, which is kind of surprising…Could you guys tell me what OCD means?

[NEW2elec]

OCD stands for Obsessive Compulsive Disorder nothing to do with motorcycles.  Mostly does a few things out of what I believe is a natural curiosity mixed with a little nervous energy.  Hopefully not getting him into trouble    Electrical engineering and battery technology are pretty advanced subjects and it annoys the people who understand these concepts when novices (myself included) say and do things that experts know don't work or are not even in the ballpark of connected subjects.  Their patience with us should be appreciated as their knowledge is one of the most valuable things on the forum.  That being said new, novice people will be the ones that make or break not only electric motorcycles but all EV's as there are simply not enough EE buyers to support a company.  We can and mostly do help each other.

p.s. Mostly, leave that thing plugged in.

[Lipo423]

Thanks for clarifying...sometimes English acronyms give us (non-native) hard time  being fluent in a few languages makes the whole thing worse as everything gets mixed up in your head (a few years ago my wife told me I was talking in English while asleep  ...and the bad news is that she also speaks it!!!   

Concerning your reply, you are spot on, could not agree more...

[MostlyBonkers]

One or two of my posts have been a bit crazy. I think I made a rod for my own back when I started going on about anxiety, perhaps a bit too much. I was genuinely trying to relieve other peoples' anxiety around charging. That's why I wrote the piece on lithium batteries. It got a lot of good comments and I was really pleased with it. However, the topic of anxiety kept coming up and I coined the term 'Obsessive Charging Disorder.' It backfired. I seem to have got a reputation for worrying too much. I've also posted one or two topics that have been interpreted as being mischievous. I've been searching for truths but at the same time I've brought some issues to the surface that may put the casual observer off. I've also managed to do it again in this topic by reporting on the loss of power at low temperatures.  In my mind I'm just making honest observations which readers would appreciate if they're considering buying a Zero.

I have a good understanding of the fundamental principles involved and I think I've been right with my observations most of the time. One particular topic went down very badly with a couple of old timers here. Others felt I'd posed a fair question. It didn't end well.

I like to think that people have benefited from some of the topics I've raised and the discussions that we've had. I may have been a little over enthusiastic and a bit tiring to some.

Now I've finally got the bike, I'll probably settle down and not post as much. There's only so much I can write about commuting after all!

[Doug S]

@NEW2Elec: Thanks for explaining my shorthand. And I probably owe MostlyBonkers an apology for a public reproach (though I thought it was pretty mild).

I think we were all very excited when we found this forum, and for many of us it came out as many and frequent postings. That's great, enthusiasm for our field should be encouraged!

But I have to admit I get a little frustrated when I log on after a couple days' absence and have to sift through 90 mostly just chatty postings to see if there's real new information. There are over 2000 members on this forum (though I'm sure not all active), and the signal-to-noise ratio could get very high very fast if we don't show some restraint. I sincerely hope this stays a reasonably technical forum, not a facebook-style social space.

I don't by any means want to discourage people from posting -- quite the contrary! I got impatient and said something in public I shouldn't have. As I said to Bonkers when he contacted me privately (which is how my original message should have been), if you have something to say, by all means, say it! If you have a question, by all means, ask it! And if you have any sort of information that may be of use to anybody else, please share it! But if it's effectively just "hey guys, wanted to say hi and that I still love electric motorcycles!", perhaps that sort of message should be toned down after the "new" wears off.

I do apologize for losing my patience, Bonkers, and for making my comment public. I really hope I haven't offended you or anybody else. We're all entitled to our stupid opinions. 

[NEW2elec]

It's all good man you be you.  I agree with you that typed words lack the vocal inflection to truly get someone's full meaning.  It could sound like a insulting put down or an attempt at a joke or sarcasm or just chiming in.  I hope that my post showed what I think which is everyone's opinions and comments and posts have value.  We may not all agree on each idea or solution to whatever problem but the larger the group that works on any issue the faster it will be fixed.  Zero just emailed me a survey last night and I actually did it which is rare.  My opinions about what direction the company should go will be added to the pile and may be used or might not but if you don't tell them they will never know.  The new IPM motor is for sure a fix to a problem the got complaints about.
And just to be clear the "trouble" I talked about in my other post was you living on the edge and going half charged.  Just don't want to see you (or anyone) get stuck.  I drained mine when I first got it as a test going back and forth up my subdivision street and when it died it was a spooky feeling.  The bike gets heavy pushing it real fast and it's rather embarrassing.
I got mine out today sunny 57F and was again reminded of how much I love the thing.
If I ever make it across the pond I'll buy ya a gallon or a pint or liter or whatever

[MostlyBonkers]

Thanks Doug, I really appreciate that. I must admit I was taken aback, but I do get your point.

Thanks New2 also, I don't think anything you said upset me.

I'm a bit embarrassed by all of this. It's kind of you both to take the time to put me right.