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[Farfle]

Can someone post a picture of what the battery looks like with the case off and what the cells look like. 

There were some articles recently of a Zero battery engineer criticizing Tesla's cylindrical cell batteries and the writer was fanning the flames with a catchy headline 'Tesla can learn a thing or two about battery design from Zero.'  Interesting.

I can post a picture of the cells, that is easy. But the packaging and interconnects in a zero module are not ours to share, so sadly I cannot post a picture of that without offending some folks.

and yes, tesla knows the cylindrical format is not optimal for the most energy in a smallest lightest box, but compared to pouch cells, you can get away with murder on packaging cylindricals. They traded a direct hit to the Whr/L and Whr/Kg stats on their pack for a lower production fallout and lower initial R&D costs. Unlike on a motorcycle, it is easier to just make the box bigger on a car.

Zero (Luke) did it the hard way, and they found a novel way to make pouch cells work, and are reaping the benefits of having 1/8th the capacity of a Tesla in 1/12th the volume and for 1/20th the weight. Nissan, GM and all the other EV manufacturers using pouches have spent more than zero has ever spent or earned by orders of magnitude and still have not done it in a way that works in the real world, so kudos to them.

[acacia1731]

Zero (Luke) did it the hard way, and they found a novel way to make pouch cells work...

In his own words...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZg237IUdFk

[Doug S]

They traded a direct hit to the Whr/L and Whr/Kg stats on their pack for a lower production fallout and lower initial R&D costs. Unlike on a motorcycle, it is easier to just make the box bigger on a car.

I'd add one other point, I don't know how true it is, but my understanding is a big part of the reason Tesla went with 18650 cells is that Panasonic had a huge surplus of them, so Tesla got them dirt cheap when they were just starting out. Now they're committed to them.

I also wonder if it's easier to water-cool a battery pack made up of cylindrical cells rather than pouch cells? I know water-stabilizing the battery temperatures is a big part of Tesla's "secret sauce".

[MostlyBonkers]

It is amazing how much anxiety people feel on this subject, myself included.

Yes, from my perspective, I wish everyone would stop overanalyzing this topic. The person with enough miles to say something is Terry and he's said his piece. I am amazed at how much skepticism there is here. Just ride the damn thing, and plug it in. Be happy and get your money's worth out of it (not penny-wise and pound-foolish).

I think folks are struggling with Zero's claims of battery longevity and their own personal experience of owning mobile phones and laptops that have had it after two or three years of use. There is conflicting information too; on one hand the advice being to keep the bike plugged in and on the other that maintaining a high SoC reduces service life. Despite my best efforts at putting peoples' minds to rest and those of others with real world experience, we keep going on and on. The fact that it's not easy to understand the chemistry doesn't help either.

What are the first questions you always get asked about electric vehicles?

What's the range?
How long does it take to charge?
How long does the battery last before you have to replace it?

We know the answers to the first two. I fear that only personal experience will satisfy people on that last question. When a few Zeros have reached ten years old and have a hundred thousand miles on the clock, people will listen to the results. Until then, let's have some faith in the engineers and stop obsessing. Look at how well the Toyota Prius has lasted!

Automotive grade batteries are designed to last as long as the vehicles they are used in. They are different beasts to phones and laptops. End of story. We've done this to death now. Goodnight and thank you all. [emoji4]

[firepower]

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/05/f15/APR13_Energy_Storage_d_III_Adv_Battery_Dev_0.pdf

Interesting info about li-ion cell.

Anyone have Farasis 27Ah and 29Ah cell data sheets?

[Killroy]

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/05/f15/APR13_Energy_Storage_d_III_Adv_Battery_Dev_0.pdf

Interesting info about li-ion cell.

Anyone have Farasis 27Ah and 29Ah cell data sheets?

+1

Anyone have a data sheet for 2015 Farasis 27Ah cells?

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/05/f15/APR13_Energy_Storage_d_III_Adv_Battery_Dev_0.pdf

Interesting info about li-ion cell.

Anyone have Farasis 27Ah and 29Ah cell data sheets?

+1

Anyone have a data sheet for 2015 Farasis 27Ah cells?

I wish. The last I heard (mid/late 2016), they haven't had time to prepare one for any of the newer cells.

[dv8sean]

RE: Data sheet for the 27Ah cells - The chemistry is the same as the 25Ah cells. The gain in capacity came from more space-efficient packaging.

RE: Cycles to 80% - The Farasis data sheet references 1,000 cycles to 80% capacity, but this data reflects charging to peak voltage and more complete discharge. I think this was mentioned earlier in this thread, but Zero programs the BMS to limit charging to a narrower range (i.e. lower upper limit, higher lower limit). Not pushing the cells to their full upper/lower limits helps longevity.

My advice FWIW -- both in an official capacity as an employee at Zero, as well as your average enthusiast --  is to follow the guidelines in the Zero owner's manual, and enjoy riding.

[gt13013]

Hello,
In this topic, you speak about 25Ah, 27Ah, 29Ah battery packs.
I have got a Zero FXS, model 2016, with 28Ah packs (see pictures here: https://goo.gl/FbjZo6).
My FXS is the 11 kW version sold in France.
Does it uses different batteries? Can I get some specifications about these packs?
Regards,
Gerard (from Marseille, France)

[clay.leihy]

Hello,
In this topic, you speak about 25Ah, 27Ah, 29Ah battery packs.
I have got a Zero FXS, model 2016, with 28Ah packs (see pictures here: https://goo.gl/FbjZo6).
My FXS is the 11 kW version sold in France.
Does it uses different batteries? Can I get some specifications about these packs?
Regards,
Gerard (from Marseille, France)

Those 3.3 battery packs look like the same ones in my US FX. US 2016 FX is rated at 33kW. (Edit: 15kW continuous, I see, not really that much difference) Same batteries, I think, euro version is just power limited to comply with local laws. Wouldn't surprise me if someone with the know how could "hack" it.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

[gt13013]

Yes, there are few differences with the standard FXS version.
The FXS 11kW sold in France is rated at 33kW peak, but 11kW continuous. Its features are given on page 6 of this document:
http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/press-2016/press-kits/2016-11kw-zero-press-kit-fr-e.pdf
As far as I know (from what I have read), the difference comes from a lower temperature limit for the motor, and the only limitation is the sustained max speed limited to 116 km/h (72 mph), and the peak max speed at 130 km/h (81 mph). That is pretty enough for my use.

[clay.leihy]

Yes, there are few differences with the standard FXS version.
The FXS 11kW sold in France is rated at 33kW peak, but 11kW continuous. Its features are given on page 6 of this document:
http://media.zeromotorcycles.com/press-2016/press-kits/2016-11kw-zero-press-kit-fr-e.pdf

A great advantage to electric, you can make one bike model to comply with different license classes just by varying the programming.

Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk

[Kocho]

Are you guys making assumptions about "different programming" for Euro vs. US spec or know for sure? I recall another thread for the S/DS/R models, where Zero confirmed the bikes are identical and the diff. in specs are due to how the different countries measure or define the power spec.

Similarly, different fuel economy ratings in US, Japan, and Europe for the same vehicles are usually due to the different test conditions they are subjected to...

[Fred]

I think the US and Euro bikes are identical, it's just the rules about how things are measured that give different numbers.

Some of the different vehicle configurations for different markets are due to emissions, and I think we have that covered!

[Erasmo]

Are you guys making assumptions about "different programming" for Euro vs. US spec or know for sure? I recall another thread for the S/DS/R models, where Zero confirmed the bikes are identical and the diff. in specs are due to how the different countries measure or define the power spec.

Similarly, different fuel economy ratings in US, Japan, and Europe for the same vehicles are usually due to the different test conditions they are subjected to...

The normal bikes are the same. But a lot of countries here in the EU have power restrictions for the youngest of riders which on a Zero you can implement with a simple firmware update.