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[Doug S]

@Kocho: Yes, water has a much higher heat capacity than air does, so it can absorb much more heat, much faster. But eventually that heat has to be dumped into the airstream, which happens at the radiator. I'm comparing dumping heat directly into the airstream off of the cylinder heads themselves (air-cooled engine) vs. dumping heat from the radiator into the airstream (water-cooled engine), without considering the intermediate transfer from the cylinder heads to the coolant. In either case, eventually all the heat the motor's creating has to wind up in the airstream somehow.

And again, sorry to OP for hijacking his thread.

[NEW2elec]

Hey all of this is design issues that we have found and are helping or at least not hurting by giving out ideas to help the bikes in the future, be it 2016 or years later.  Now I really like my Zero and it does what I need it to do but I think all of the E bikes are based on ICE bike designs with electric power trains.  It helps to sell to a public that is used to this way of looking and acting.  Is it the best format for these bikes?
The bike shouldn't overheat even under full out power.  How can this be fixed?
I saw a video (yes I watch a lot of You Tube) of a Ronin 47 an old Buell 1125 modified to a funky love it or hate it design.
 ! No longer available
What caught my eye was the front fork and radiator. 
So if you don't get fork height change then you can have a belt at the same distance.
If you can have a belt there then why not a drive motor above it or a shaft drive.
The springs of the suspension would be above the motor so motor to wheel to motor distance is the same
It could be used as either the sole drive motor or two wheel drive.
The motor at the front of the bike in the main air stream cool as can be.
Everybody is happy. If it works.
Somebody go spend a bunch of money on this and tell me how it turns out.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Hey all of this is design issues that we have found and are helping or at least not hurting by giving out ideas to help the bikes in the future, be it 2016 or years later.  Now I really like my Zero and it does what I need it to do but I think all of the E bikes are based on ICE bike designs with electric power trains.  It helps to sell to a public that is used to this way of looking and acting.  Is it the best format for these bikes?
The bike shouldn't overheat even under full out power.  How can this be fixed?



What caught my eye was the front fork and radiator. 
So if you don't get fork height change then you can have a belt at the same distance.
If you can have a belt there then why not a drive motor above it or a shaft drive.
The springs of the suspension would be above the motor so motor to wheel to motor distance is the same
It could be used as either the sole drive motor or two wheel drive.
The motor at the front of the bike in the main air stream cool as can be.
Everybody is happy. If it works.
Somebody go spend a bunch of money on this and tell me how it turns out.

I like the general idea of a totally different motorcycle design. This particular one seems like it'd have a ton of teething issues and might not work out.

That said, that'd be a lot of risk so we won't likely see a radically different production design for a few years, at least at scale (Lito Sora, Zecoo, etc only count as custom small-batch designs).

If Zero changed its motor and battery arrangement, that alone would be a kind of a big step. They might have to retool a lot around a new frame and cable routing and deal with new quality issues... sigh, this alone makes my head hurt. Motorcycle design is hard; I'm guessing they're focusing on making the MBB and BMS boards more robust since that probably costs them the most in warrantee interactions. Cooling architecture considerations probably take second place to reliability and constantly pushing range a bit each year.

[zr2ee]

Hi everyone, new to the forums but have been doing some research on the zero's for a bit and looking at purchasing one.

I'm extremely excited to see what they bring to the table for the 2016 model year.

For me i agree that the largest concerns would be (mileage, price, and hot weather performance) anything else would be icing on the cake but i don't feel like it's necessary at this time and could be added on aftermarket for those who would want it.

I think adding a fairing and improving the Aero would be the best bang for the buck for these bikes, both from Zero's standpoint and the customers to address both price and mileage. Hopefully we'll see something with this on the 16' model year and hopefully it retains it's sporty design.

i'll leave the mathematical debate up to the thermodynamics engineers but i think there is definitely some cost effective room for improvement for cooling the motor. whether it be simply re-directing the airflow to more efficiently pull heat away during higher speeds when demand is greatest, Liquid cooling, expanded heatsink through the frame, or some kind of crazy evaporation method.

I'm probably going to start another thread for this but i'm surprised to see there hasn't been more of a aftermarket startup innovation to address some of these concerns instead of just waiting for zero's response.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Hi everyone, new to the forums but have been doing some research on the zero's for a bit and looking at purchasing one.

Welcome!

I think adding a fairing and improving the Aero would be the best bang for the buck for these bikes, both from Zero's standpoint and the customers to address both price and mileage. Hopefully we'll see something with this on the 16' model year and hopefully it retains it's sporty design.

It just occurred to me that improving the aerodynamics, while it might reduce the airflow to the motor if not designed right, would reduce the need for cooling because the motor would be working less hard at a given speed.

Just a thought, not digging on your suggestion/preferences.

[SteveInNC]

Hi everyone, new to the forums but have been doing some research on the zero's for a bit and looking at purchasing one.

Welcome!

I think adding a fairing and improving the Aero would be the best bang for the buck for these bikes, both from Zero's standpoint and the customers to address both price and mileage. Hopefully we'll see something with this on the 16' model year and hopefully it retains it's sporty design.

It just occurred to me that improving the aerodynamics, while it might reduce the airflow to the motor if not designed right, would reduce the need for cooling because the motor would be working less hard at a given speed.

Just a thought, not digging on your suggestion/preferences.

Exactly my thoughts. My bike has went into safe mode nearly every time that I've rode it since purchasing it right at 800 miles ago. I don't want anything hindering airflow anymore than necessary. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[zr2ee]

Hi everyone, new to the forums but have been doing some research on the zero's for a bit and looking at purchasing one.

Welcome!

I think adding a fairing and improving the Aero would be the best bang for the buck for these bikes, both from Zero's standpoint and the customers to address both price and mileage. Hopefully we'll see something with this on the 16' model year and hopefully it retains it's sporty design.

It just occurred to me that improving the aerodynamics, while it might reduce the airflow to the motor if not designed right, would reduce the need for cooling because the motor would be working less hard at a given speed.

Just a thought, not digging on your suggestion/preferences.

Exactly my thoughts. My bike has went into safe mode nearly every time that I've rode it since purchasing it right at 800 miles ago. I don't want anything hindering airflow anymore than necessary. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good points, The motor seems tucked away pretty tight behind the battery at the moment. hopefully some paneling could be designed in such a fashion  to pull heat away from critical components as it was directed through/past.

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

It just occurred to me that improving the aerodynamics, while it might reduce the airflow to the motor if not designed right, would reduce the need for cooling because the motor would be working less hard at a given speed.

Just a thought, not digging on your suggestion/preferences.

Exactly my thoughts. My bike has went into safe mode nearly every time that I've rode it since purchasing it right at 800 miles ago. I don't want anything hindering airflow anymore than necessary. 

That is ... the opposite of what I meant. Reducing the drag coefficient would reduce the heat produced by the motor. You don't need special cooling measures if you're producing less heat.

Who are you people who max out the cooling capacity on every outing? This is why motorcycle journalists seem so insane, because they're trying to emulate your expectations and not mine.

[NoiseBoy]

That doesn't sound right at all SteveInNC. I was trying to get my SR to overheat and couldn't do it. What kind of riding are you doing?

[SteveInNC]

That doesn't sound right at all SteveInNC. I was trying to get my SR to overheat and couldn't do it. What kind of riding are you doing?

Spirited up the side of a mountain mostly. I have to be really careful because I've had a few instances that I attempted to pass a slower vehicle and had no power to do so.

[zr2ee]

I've also seen several video test ride reviews on youtube where the SR went into safe mode during their ride. Neither of them seemed to be pushing the bike very hard and they were riding on flat terrain. My Concern in Utah would be the hot dry summers and riding up the canyons. It would be super frustrating not to mention un-nerving to have the power cut out on you like that frequently.

[Kocho]

Zero should find out a way to get more advanced rider aids. Look at the cool stuff that comes here for about the same price as a barebones SR: https://www.kawasaki.com/Products/2016-Ninja-ZX-10R-ABS-KRT-Edition

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

Zero should find out a way to get more advanced rider aids. Look at the cool stuff that comes here for about the same price as a barebones SR: https://www.kawasaki.com/Products/2016-Ninja-ZX-10R-ABS-KRT-Edition

You're comparing Zero to Kawasaki? Okay, I'll answer this seriously.

The factors are: scale and maturity.

At scale, you can order parts in larger batches which lowers the overhead. You can also predict a need for those parts over many years and book orders in advance. You have sales figures and trends to back you up with creditors and suppliers.

With maturity, you have less risk that you'll need to completely redesign the machine to satisfy new market needs. Gas bike manufacturers have that, and have standardized on a number of technologies to satisfy those needs. Electric motorcycle manufacturers have maybe two or three models per company that they can support. Zero did waste some time iterating on motorcycle designs per year, but they've gratefully stopped that now and are just building on a platform, but it'll take time.

Anyway, it's not Zero's fault for not delivering all of the nice bits you see on more common motorcycles. There's a reason they're the only electric motorcycle company delivering at under $20k.

[grmarks]

Zero should find out a way to get more advanced rider aids. Look at the cool stuff that comes here for about the same price as a barebones SR: https://www.kawasaki.com/Products/2016-Ninja-ZX-10R-ABS-KRT-Edition

You can also think of it this way, how much does a hand make car or motorbike cost? A lot more than a mass produced one. When Zero gets bigger (and batteries get cheaper) then you will see more and more things on the bike (and better quality as well).
When I was a kid japanese stuff was crap. Bearings, bolts, and quality in general was the worst. 40 years latter they are generally the best.
The lighting is a fantastic bike, but I can't afford one, but I do have my 2015 SR, that I can enjoy now. Not that I would ever want a bike as powerfull as a lightning. I am really happy with the power of my SR. But I don't ride on a hill climb.
Adding a higher performance bike to the line up (at a higher price) might be an idea, but would it get enough sales?
 

[wavelet]

Anyway, it's not Zero's fault for not delivering all of the nice bits you see on more common motorcycles.

Yup.
Zero built 1300 bikes in 2014, and were expecting (according to this LA Times quote) to build 1800 this year. By all accounts, that's nice growth, and they're doing well, but they're a tiny company...
Kawasaki sells several 100Ks of bikes per year (if you count ATVs and personal watercraft, which use the same engines, around 600K); not to mention they're part of a large production multinational which gives lots of leverage.

There's a reason they're the only electric motorcycle company delivering at under $20k.

Essentially, the only one actually delivering series production e-motorcycles, at all, at any price (scooters excepted).
All the rest are still in the promises stage, or doing basically  1-off boutique bikes (tho' I expect that Brammo will return to actual sales under Polaris).