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[wavelet]

By the way, guess who's going to have egg on his face in a couple of weeks if Zero announce a sport tourer? Fairing and fast charging and you can all feel free to mock me over the VFR purchase!

I hardly think you need to be worried    Pretty much no chance Zero will be in a position to release a bike that can compete on all parameters with the VFR. That's too big a step for one year... Not to mention, right now I don't think it's even a question of price -- batteries don't yet exist which could do this.
That's probably like 3 steps away -- 5 years or so.
(That said, frankly, no offense -- while I've never ridden the VFR1200, I have ridden both a early 1990s and a 2004 (rented for a 200km trip), and they left me completely cold. Much more like a car than a bike, and I would never buy the current version given the poor fuel tank range. Come to think of it, that's one thing it has in common with current e-motorcycles).

[MostlyBonkers]

I'd be willing to compromise on power for a Zero with a fairing and fast charging. Owning an NC750S for six months has taught me that naked bikes aren't suitable for regular or sustained motorway journeys, especially with winter approaching.

Even though 95-99% of my motorcycling is done on my commute, I still need to know that I can take a bike out for a day's ride and not have to stop for any length of time, other than when I desire to eat and rest.

[Erasmo]

I have no direct experience in this, so I'd be happy to be corrected, but not according to this thread, and according to this ("The problem with fast charge stations", about midway on the page) the issue is still very far from fixed.

It's going to take a while before the entire issue is resolved, but I believe what Erasmo is saying is that the number of Blink and EVTEC chargers, which don't support battery voltage down to 50V (per the spec) just isn't that great. Before Zero removed the CHAdeMO adapter from the market, I was considering getting one, and it seems like most of the units in my area would work for me. Didn't test any of them so I can't know for sure, but it looked like it might be a good option in the SoCal area.

Spot on. I' still have to encounter the first DC charger that doesn't go down to 50V here in the Netherlands.

[MichaelJ]

You didn't even think of a reverse gear? Amateur.

Seriously, half of your wish list are gimmicks that most of the market can live without or easily fixed with cheap third-party products.

The essentials are: fairing and charging.

I'm surprised few people suggest a parking brake.  Flatlander.


Sent from my LG-V410 using Tapatalk

[wavelet]

You didn't even think of a reverse gear? Amateur.

Seriously, half of your wish list are gimmicks that most of the market can live without or easily fixed with cheap third-party products.

The essentials are: fairing and charging.

I'm surprised few people suggest a parking brake.  Flatlander.

I forgot about that one.
The lack of some kind of simple safety device to prevent accidental roll-away is serious, given what a motorbike weighs.
In a lot of places laws require you to place a bike in gear when parked (in addition to every motorcycle handbook / training course saying the same), so I'm a bit surprised one isn't legally required.
All auto-transmission bikes I can recall offhand -- some weren't strictly auto, since you had to shift, but would still roll with the engine off -- MotoGuzzi V1000 Convert, Honda Hondamatic CM400A, Suzuki GS450A, Aprilia Mana, Honda DN01, Honda NC700, VFR 1200F DCT) had/have a cable-actuated brake locking one of the rotors. Adding such a cable as stock would a cheap & effective solution.
(The kludgey straps I've read about that compress the brake lever to the handlebars look like a bad idea to me -- besides being kludgey, AFAIK brake fluid seals are not designed to be under pressure this way for long periods of time and might deform prematurely.)

[kensiko]

Can't way to see what they have !

But I'm going to stick with my 2013 S, my money is currently focused on the house and on the Leaf.

[protomech]

By the way, guess who's going to have egg on his face in a couple of weeks if Zero announce a sport tourer? Fairing and fast charging and you can all feel free to mock me over the VFR purchase!

I hardly think you need to be worried    Pretty much no chance Zero will be in a position to release a bike that can compete on all parameters with the VFR. That's too big a step for one year... Not to mention, right now I don't think it's even a question of price -- batteries don't yet exist which could do this.
That's probably like 3 steps away -- 5 years or so.
(That said, frankly, no offense -- while I've never ridden the VFR1200, I have ridden both a early 1990s and a 2004 (rented for a 200km trip), and they left me completely cold. Much more like a car than a bike, and I would never buy the current version given the poor fuel tank range. Come to think of it, that's one thing it has in common with current e-motorcycles).

I bought a 1999 VFR800 a little while ago. Zero "could" build something like that for 2016. Will they? Probably not, but here's hoping.

The VFR gets around 45 mpg on the highway and has a 5 gallon tank. A bit over 200 miles of highway range.

Zero could build a 20 kWh battery pack from their current cells, as mentioned previously. Or maybe they could use the LG cells powering the Bolt @ $145/kWh. I suppose Zero's costs are around $5k for its current 11 kWh pack, assembled. If they were able to get slightly higher pricing than GM, considering their lower volume - they could perhaps introduce a 20 kWh pack at the same cost as their current 11 kWh pack.

20 kWh would give you 150 miles of highway range with the unfaired 2015 type bike, but easily 200 miles with some aero improvements.

Component weights for the 2013 ZF11.4 S (387 lbs):
- 112 Farasis 25 Ah cells, 10 kWh - 120 lbs
- battery enclosure, internal structure, BMS, cabling, etc - 50 lbs
- controller - 5.9 lbs
- charger - 9.5 lbs
- ZF75-7 motor - 39 lbs
- "Rest of bike" - 162.6 lbs

A 2015 SR ZF12.5 weighs 414 pounds, a gain of 37 pounds over that 2013 S model. The frame is beefier, the wheels and tires are a little larger, the controller is heavier.

What would a sport-touring bike look like, starting from the 414 lb 2015 SR?

- higher capacity pack - +60 pounds
I haven't seen any information on the battery density for the LG cells in the Bolt. LG is shipping 3500 mAh 18650s today at around 270 Wh/kg. Similar density on their pouch cells would put the cell weight at around 160 lbs (a gain of 40). A larger battery enclosure and slightly longer frame might add another 20 pounds.
- ABS / fiberglass fairing - +20 pounds
This wouldn't necessarily have to be as large or as wide as the Vetter fairing. I'm convinced highway power consumption could drop to 100 Wh/mile with a lighter bike and a slightly less aerodynamic but ultimately narrower fairing.
- 3 kW J1772 AC charger - same weight
Zero could switch to the same Eltek charger used on the Brammo bikes today. This would give the bike a 7-8 hour charge time from empty, which would suffice for overnight charging.
- Tesla Supercharger inlet and interface boards - +5 pounds
- further beef up the frame, suspension - +10 pounds
- dual front brakes, 160 mm width rear tire and wheels - +15 pounds
Kind of expected on a sport-tourer.

Puts the bike around 500 pounds. Right around the VFR800 "wet weight". A little slower - think SR ZF12.5 power tank with an extra 40 pounds. A little less highway range, a little higher city / backroads range. With the fairing - and possibly a slightly smaller rear pulley - continuous speed highway operation could improve to 90-100 mph.

Zero could sell a 200 mile electric in 2016 or 2017 for around $20k (more realistically somewhat higher), and probably make a profit on it. It doesn't require magic technology. If the Tesla Superchargers do support voltages down to 50V, then they could get a 20 minute 20-80% charge (120 miles) along all the Supercharger-enabled interstate routes today.

Will Zero do it? Who knows. It would be a pretty big jump for them. But their engineers surely have something like this knocking around. The technical challenges are (relatively speaking) small, the harder challenge will be the business case to jump from selling electrics at $10-18k to $25k and locking in a cheaper supply of higher-density cells.

How many people would pay $20k for a 150 mile Zero, or $25k for a 200 mile Zero with access to Tesla's Supercharger network? I think they could do pretty well; the 2014 SR started at $18k, and (according to the EV owner map) sold quite well. Double the range, sort the quick charging issue, and I think they would sell every one they could build.

[Xenoilphobe]

I would if they add the 8 year unlimited mileage warranty.  sign me up! (btw i am a former owner of a 2004 VFR 800 - loved the bike - however hated the power delivery of the VTEC engine)....

[mrwilsn]

As for a larger compartment in the "gas tank", I'm pretty sure it's impossible to have one there large enough for most full-face helmets. I do wish it was metal-topped, however -- I've over a dozen tankbags. None of the strap-based ones work, and all the magnetic ones do.
Re a touch display, I think it's a bad idea on a motorcycle in terms of convenient control and visibility in sunlight (hell, I think LCD gauges are a bad idea -- I've yet to see a setup which is as easy to read or cost-effective to repair as old-style analog.)

It's definitely not impossible to have a storage tank large enough for a full face helmet.  You could easily get 30L or more in the tank area, which is big enough for a full face helmet.  If I remove the tank from my Zero S and set the helmet directly on top of the battery pack the top of the helmet is only a few inches higher that the current tank.  For an idea of how this might work check out the 3D renderings done by a Tesla fan.

http://silodrome.com/tesla-model-m/

[mrwilsn]

- Tesla Supercharger inlet and interface boards - +5 pounds
- further beef up the frame, suspension - +10 pounds

A partnership with Tesla would be amazing!  Per statements made by Elon Musk, anyone is free to use their patents without any coordination.  However, for Zero customers to get access to the Tesla supercharger network Zero would have to pay part of the costs of the charging infrastructure.  Tesla has stated that they would only expect partners to pay according to usage.  In theory Zero would then pay only a percentage of the total costs since Zero owners would only use a fraction of the electricity as a Tesla by virtue of the much smaller battery pack on a Zero and the fact that there are a lot more Tesla cars than there are Zero motorcycles.

I'm not sure the frame needs to be beefed up.  In fact, at some point the concept of a frame on a motorcycle needs to change drastically on electric bikes.  With an ICE you need a solid frame to CARRY the motor and gas tank and to absorb the vibration from the motor.  This isn't necessary with an electric drive train.  The Tesla Model S uses the battery pack as an integral part of the structure of the car.  Electric motorcycle makers will need to do the same thing.  Rather than creating a frame that carries the battery pack they need to make the battery pack itself an integral part of the overall structural integrity of the bike.  Making this shift will drastically reduce the weight of the bike which increases range and improves performance.

[mrwilsn]

(*) Sorry, but IMO keyless ignition is a horrible idea, especially on an electric vehicle. It makes the concept of whether the bike is currently on or not a fuzzy condition, instead of a binary one. An ignition key, where you develop the good habit of removing it from the bike as soon as you dismount, is conceptually much simpler and safer.

All it takes is some clever engineering.  Harley has a really interesting keyless operation concept that could be adapted.  The bike has a knob where the key would normally go.  The knob can only be turned when the key fob is in range.  You can even lock the steering column using the knob and you can use a key for back up if the battery in the FOB is dead.  They could make it so that if you walk away with the knob in the RUN position the bike shuts off.  When you walk back up to the bike, if the knob is already in the RUN position you are required to turn to the OFF position and then back to the RUN position before you can ride away.  Bingo...its still a binary decision....its easy because you don't have to pull a key out of your pocket....you don't have a set of keys rattling around scratching paint....and if you walk away without turning the bike off it does it for you and even though the steering won't be locked at least its better than the times I accidentally walked away from my bike with the key still in the ignition.

[mrwilsn]

- My BMW i3 has connected drive and I can see from any place with smartphone, tablet or pc what the charge status is of my car, and locate my car. I would love to see this with my Zero.
- A better cooling system for the engine. Now, its too often overheated

Definitely need a way to remotely monitor state of charge. At home this should be through WIFI instead of the current limitation of bluetooth.  If the bike is plugged in at home it can connect to WIFI and I can monitor state of charge no matter where I am.  If the bike is charging at a public charging station that probably means adding cellular connectivity to the bike.

Benswing talked about this in his videos during his trip to Mexico.

Liquid cooling would be great too.  If they add a quick charging capability then air cooling isn't going to cut it if you plan to ride 100+ miles at 70-80 MPH then recharge and do it again.  Some people will still want the simplicity of an air cooled bike but they need a liquid cooled option in their lineup.

[protomech]

Liquid cooling would be great too.  If they add a quick charging capability then air cooling isn't going to cut it if you plan to ride 100+ miles at 70-80 MPH then recharge and do it again.  Some people will still want the simplicity of an air cooled bike but they need a liquid cooled option in their lineup.

With a larger battery pack, highway discharge will be on the order of 0.3-0.4C. It shouldn't heat up as much as a smaller pack.

A 60% charge in 20 minutes will likely heat the pack some, and they may well need to adopt at least forced air cooling like the Nissan LEAF to support this.

[NEW2elec]

Has anyone tried a simple air scoop pointed at the motor?  It is tucked behind the battery pack real cozy. A simple plastic elbow might help.  It would hurt the overall air flow of the bike but in the summer might be worth it.  Just pop on or off depending on the season.  That Lightning has some nice features at least in theory.  Oil cooled motor case the acts as rear frame support.  Liquid cooled electronics and air cooled battery.  The Ego has air slots to both cool the battery and let air get back to the motor.  I think they have a patent on it though.

[mrwilsn]

With a larger battery pack, highway discharge will be on the order of 0.3-0.4C. It shouldn't heat up as much as a smaller pack.

A 60% charge in 20 minutes will likely heat the pack some, and they may well need to adopt at least forced air cooling like the Nissan LEAF to support this.

I was really talking about the motor.  I have only gone for a test drive on an SR so I can't speak for how well the "high temp permanent magnets" perform but I can tell you that the motor on the Zero S starts to heat up when you are traveling at highway speeds for an extended period of time.  I think that guys that race are also running into problems  with the SR motor overheating when pushing the bike hard.