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Hypothetically, How much would you pay for an onboard charger that could fit in your tank and charge your zero in under an hour?

500
- 14 (13.9%)
1000
- 21 (20.8%)
1500
- 16 (15.8%)
2000
- 30 (29.7%)
2500
- 7 (6.9%)
3000
- 7 (6.9%)
3500
- 3 (3%)
4000
- 2 (2%)
4500
- 0 (0%)
5000
- 1 (1%)

Total Members Voted: 86


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Author Topic: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour  (Read 35854 times)

mrwilsn

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #90 on: October 27, 2015, 05:31:43 AM »

Hypothetically, could the batteries handle having two DigiNow Super Chargers hooked up?

No. The cells are rated to 1C charging, which the DigiNow charger gets pretty close to. But it doesn't matter; the big Anderson connector is rated for 100 amps, so that's all the current you're going to be able to use to charge the batteries with anyhow.

If you installed two and detuned their output so they both have the same output and both equal less than 100A charging power you should be fine. This if you plan on using two J1772 or 14-50 connections. If you charge through the controller then you could charge more than 100A if you change some settings in the DVT / ODBII; if I recall correctly.

This would really only be beneficial if you have a lot of J1772 stations right next to each other and you would have to find a location for the second charger but technically it could be safely done.

To be clear...it was just a hypothetical, I'm definitely not planning on doing this.  Not worth the money for the limited circumstances under which you could take advantage of the second charger.  But if I was gonna do it one charger could go in the tank and the other in a top box.  Or if you have a big enough top box (bigger than the one Zero sells) you could put both in the top box.
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mrwilsn

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #91 on: October 27, 2015, 05:57:50 AM »

Hypothetically, could the batteries handle having two DigiNow Super Chargers hooked up?

No. The cells are rated to 1C charging, which the DigiNow charger gets pretty close to. But it doesn't matter; the big Anderson connector is rated for 100 amps, so that's all the current you're going to be able to use to charge the batteries with anyhow.

This is exactly the answer I was looking for...batteries rated to 1C and anderson connector rated for 100 amps. Thanks Doug!

So, since nominal capacity on the ZF 11.4 is 10 kWh....the Super Charger is actually capable of providing more power than the pack can handle.  For a Power Tank equipped 2016 SR with 14 kWh nominal capacity, the Super Charger will be capable of providing more power than the pack can handle once they release the CHAdeMO adaptor and the Super Charger can provide 15kW.  But won't you need to exceed the 100 amp limit on the anderson connector and hit 130A @ 116V to get 15kW output from the Super Charger?

Am I getting that right?

How much power the particular J1772 or NEMA 14-50 connector you plug into can provide is obviously another story....I have seen some saying that certain J1772 are only providing 3.3kW  :'(
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benswing

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #92 on: October 27, 2015, 07:31:15 AM »

How much power the particular J1772 or NEMA 14-50 connector you plug into can provide is obviously another story....I have seen some saying that certain J1772 are only providing 3.3kW  :'(

J1772 plugs supply 30A at either 208, 220, or 240V.  They will supply about 6.2-7.2kW (except Blink, which gives an overcurrent error over 6kW). 

The possible reason you have seen people say they can only get 3.3kW out of a J1772 plug is because the onboard charger on some cars is 3.3kW.  For example, the onboard charger on any Chevy Volt, Mitsubishi i-MiEV or 2011-2012 Nissan LEAFs are 3.3kW.  Even though the J1772 charging station can provide 6.6kW, the onboard charger can only convert 3.3kW of that electricity to DC current to charge the car's battery.

With a NEMA 4-50 connection, you should be able to get about 10kW, plus there are always 110V plugs next to the 50A outlet.  So you should be able to get 11kW at an RV Park. 

You have no idea how excited I am to try this out in late November!
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #93 on: October 27, 2015, 01:43:06 PM »

Here's a thread on how Tesla charge at up to 2C.

https://www.quora.com/How-does-Teslas-Superchargers-charge-up-so-fast

Bearing in mind that Tesla are in the automotive industry and have much more R&D clout, I'd say that what we have with the Zero battery pack and this new charger is the best we can expect for some time.

Ambitions of being able to get another 100 miles of range in 20-30 minutes are clearly unrealistic. To manage this in approximately an hour is a massive achievement.

I still find all the different charging options in different countries confusing. That seems to be the next challenge!
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protomech

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #94 on: October 27, 2015, 05:31:30 PM »


Bearing in mind that Tesla are in the automotive industry and have much more R&D clout, I'd say that what we have with the Zero battery pack and this new charger is the best we can expect for some time.

Ambitions of being able to get another 100 miles of range in 20-30 minutes are clearly unrealistic. To manage this in approximately an hour is a massive achievement.

100 miles with a streamliner fairing is 10 kWh of energy. Adding this energy in 20-30 minutes requires 20-30 kW of charge acceptance. That's possible with a large battery pack; the 14 kWh ZF13+PT would only be 1.5C at 20 kW, and a 20 kWh bike could do 30 kW at 1.5C. At low SOC I bet the Zero packs could take a 1.5C charge without heating up too much.

Realistically, you're correct; a faired tourer is probably a couple of years out still. But that seems to be more limited by business reasons (sales predictions for a $$$ bike that "looks funny") and risk rather than technical limitations.

A PT Zero S with a free-mounted diginow super charger and a 40A EVSE (10 kW AC) could add about 30 miles of highway range in 30 minutes ($20k). Add a streamlined fairing and this increases to 50 miles in 30 minutes (say $23k with installation).

Energica is a 12 kWh bike and it seems to charge at about 20 kW. Despite the sport fairing, however, its highway range seems very poor; 60 miles at highway speeds. It can add 50 miles in 20 minutes. Price in the mid $30k range.

Lightning claims to sell a 20 kWh bike that can DCQC with 160 miles of highway range. With a 30 minute 80% charge this can restore 100 miles in approximately 25 minutes (~30 kW). No price listed for the higher capacity packs, but $50k for the 20 kWh pack would not surprise me.

Both of these bikes have sport bike fairings and relatively conventional styling. I don't expect to see large sales success for either due to price and fledgling distribution networks.. really curious to see how Victory does selling a $20k bike that seems to fall short in many ways of the $16k SR. Name recognition, sales and service networks count for a lot.

It may take a Yamaha, Kawasaki, or Honda to actually deliver on these touring bikes. And while CHAdeMO is hugely popular in Japan, the US and Europe are a long ways away from a ride-anywhere DCQC network and no clear standards victor.

The "good news", I guess, is that the longer we wait the easier it gets to make the business case for a ~$20k tourer; the QC networks improve and component costs continue to fall. Tesla has a decent QC network already; I think the widespread availability of 150-200 mile low-priced electric cars in 2017-2018 will really get some momentum behind growing the standard networks.

Zero has seen modest success with bikes in the $14-18k space, with their limited sales and support networks and no real touring capability. The large manufacturers are clearly waiting for the right time to drop a tourer. I wonder if Zero will beat them to it.
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Chocula

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #95 on: October 27, 2015, 11:06:33 PM »

J1772 plugs supply 30A at either 208, 220, or 240V.  They will supply about 6.2-7.2kW (except Blink, which gives an overcurrent error over 6kW). 

The J1772 standard will support up to 80A at 240V which is (19.2kW), however the specific connector, cable, relays, etc for a specific EVSE  (Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment) are not required to support that.  It USA, the EVSE with a J1772 plug that comes with most electric cars are typically 120V and allow up to 12A.  A typical Level 2 EVSE supplies between 208V and 240V depending on how power gets supplied to the EVSE, and while 30A and 40A are common, they theoretically might only support 6A.  There are many home units that only supply 15 amps as well as GM Voltec EVSEs frequently found at Chevrolet dealers.

The EVSE's use a pilot signal to tell the charger what the max amperage it can support and then expect the charger to honor that limit to avoid tripping the breaker, melting parts, etc.  Wikipedia has a reasonable summary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772 of the standard.

Plugshare http://www.plugshare.com/ is pretty good about identify the lower power units, and they typically have lighter and more flexible cables.

Chocula
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 11:11:31 PM by Chocula »
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mrwilsn

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #96 on: October 31, 2015, 07:19:19 AM »

Looks like this might have been what they were talking about when they said CHAdeMO adaptor coming soon to the Super Charger.  Buy one of these and it doesn't matter if the charging station supports the lower voltage of the Zero pack.

NEW: CHAdeMO (TM) - compatible charge controller for EMotorWerks DC Chargers $700

NEW: CHAdeMO (TM) - compatible Cable & Plug for EMotorWerks DC Chargers $900

Not sure if there will be room under the tank for the extra 11 x 7 x 3 box for the CHAdeMO controller.  Maybe DigiNow already worked it into the Super Charger and its just the cable that is needed? That would be sweet!

Looks like DigiNow may have been able to get a batch of these kits and packaged it into a form factor that fits under the Zero tank. Smart!

Complete SmartCharge-12000 PFC EV Charger component kit, no enclosure $1300

Hardware & wiring kit for SmartCharge-12000 $70

Pending the cost of the DigiNow "CHAdeMO adaptor" and taking into consideration the engineering effort they put in, it looks like DigiNow are packing some good value into their Super Charger.  However, if you are comfortable with a soldering iron and don't care about things like an enclosure or water resistance there is an opportunity to get yourself one of these kits and really get a bargain.  I don't remember seeing these kits on the emotorwerks site when the DigiNow Super Charger was first announced but maybe I just missed it.

I can't wait to play with my new Super Charger late next month!  Even without CHAdeMO yet its going to be SOOO much better over the stock charger!
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 12:07:02 AM by mrwilsn »
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Doug S

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #97 on: December 08, 2015, 10:38:02 PM »

Has anybody seen or heard of any movement on the super-charger? I honestly wasn't expecting them to make the ship date they advertised, but it's well past now, and not a single peep, even in response to emails I've sent. An update would be extremely welcome. More than anything, I'd like to hear what the connector is going to look like so I can rig up a 14-50 cable and be ready to play when it gets here.

Any word yet on any front?
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #98 on: December 09, 2015, 12:34:33 AM »

I was told after inquiring that at least one has shipped. And said it was okay to share that, but I'm not sure why they didn't speak up themselves.
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Doug S

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #99 on: December 09, 2015, 01:34:18 AM »

...I'm not sure why they didn't speak up themselves.

Hopefully they're busy getting the rest of the pilot lot ready for shipment. But I do wish they'd give me the connector information I want to get a cable assembled; OTOH they haven't contacted me about a shipping address yet either, so maybe the next few are still a ways away.

I also hope they aren't including Terry's prototype as the first "shipped" unit.
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benswing

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #100 on: December 09, 2015, 05:26:13 AM »

I think Terry got the first production model shipped on Nov 24.  It would be nice to have an update on these.  I'm anxiously awaiting mine so I can ride and test it out before the ground freezes.


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mrwilsn

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #101 on: December 09, 2015, 06:56:31 AM »



I honestly wasn't expecting them to make the ship date they advertised, but it's well past now, and not a single peep, even in response to emails I've sent.

I tried to be patient but last night I finally broke down and sent an email asking if they could tell me an expected ship date. No response yet.

If things are taking a bit longer than expected that's understandable but it would be nice to at least be kept in the loop about what's going on....I don't think that's asking too much after dropping $3k.

Since I am #9 I am expecting that I will be one of the last if not the last to get one out of the first batch. [emoji20]



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mrwilsn

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #102 on: December 09, 2015, 04:47:43 PM »

Just got a response...

"There was a delay at the manufacture due to the Thanksgiving break. The Chargers will be shipping soon. "

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Electric Terry

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #103 on: December 09, 2015, 06:17:04 PM »

Hey guys,

I have been testing the first production unit and am scheduled to go to Electric Motor Werks tomorrow for a teardown and inspection.  I would guess that other units were waiting to ship until this analysis was complete but I am not sure if they have or not.

I would guess that if everything is 100% that the other units will go out soon.  I'll ask if Electric Motor Werks or DigiNow can post an update here when I talk to them tomorrow.
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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #104 on: December 09, 2015, 10:09:58 PM »

Thanks, Terry!
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