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Hypothetically, How much would you pay for an onboard charger that could fit in your tank and charge your zero in under an hour?

500
- 14 (13.9%)
1000
- 21 (20.8%)
1500
- 16 (15.8%)
2000
- 30 (29.7%)
2500
- 7 (6.9%)
3000
- 7 (6.9%)
3500
- 3 (3%)
4000
- 2 (2%)
4500
- 0 (0%)
5000
- 1 (1%)

Total Members Voted: 86


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Author Topic: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour  (Read 35858 times)

Erasmo

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #165 on: January 27, 2016, 12:39:27 PM »

Yup here in West-Europe the fast charging infrastructure already pretty much has decent coverage, now it is a matter of fine-graining it even more.

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Justin Andrews

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #166 on: January 27, 2016, 05:21:40 PM »

Quote from: Benswing
To have a 200mi range and a 1hr recharge time we would need a 20kWh battery (probably a bit more)

I'd say that you'd need closer to a 28kWh nominal battery to achieve 200mi.
My own experience from my three bikes is that holding 50mph (with ocassional 30mph through towns) seems to averages at 7 miles per kWh.
(So far I have recorded averages of 6.8 miles per kWh on the 2012 ZF9, 7 miles per kWh on my 2013 S, and 6.9 miles per kWh on my SR)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 05:23:17 PM by Justin Andrews »
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Electric Terry

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #167 on: January 27, 2016, 06:51:58 PM »

Quote from: Benswing
To have a 200mi range and a 1hr recharge time we would need a 20kWh battery (probably a bit more)

I'd say that you'd need closer to a 28kWh nominal battery to achieve 200mi.
My own experience from my three bikes is that holding 50mph (with ocassional 30mph through towns) seems to averages at 7 miles per kWh.
(So far I have recorded averages of 6.8 miles per kWh on the 2012 ZF9, 7 miles per kWh on my 2013 S, and 6.9 miles per kWh on my SR)

Hopefully aerodynamics will improve soon which will significantly increase that.  or what i'm hoping is a commercially available bolt on sporty looking fairing will be available to double range at 75-80 mph.  I know in Texas the speed limit is85 mph in some places.  You would more than double range at those speeds and your motor would never get hot because it only has to put out half the power.  And your rear tire would last 25,000 miles.  Mine did.

In may last year I went over 300 miles on a single charge with 27 kWh onboard riding the interstate in the fast lane at speeds often over 70-75 mph.  This was on the Vetter streamlined 2012 Zero.

So that is about 100 miles at 70-75 mph per 9 kwh of battery given good streamlining
Without streamlining it's between a third and half that range.

Adding double the battery just means a lot more cost, a lot more weight, a lot more space (where do you put it all?) and a lot more onboard charging capacity, and you need to source that amount of power at each charging stop.

Isn't it just easier to have an aerodynamic fairing?  it fixes all those 5 issues all at once!

A stock 5 brick Zero with a Vetter fairing and a Hollywood Electrics Elcon kit could cross the country in less than 3 days.
That's 150 miles per charge at highway speeds, and 2 hours of charging.
2 hours riding at 75 mph, 2 hours charging from a standard J plug.
2500 miles to cross the US at 150 miles every 4 hours and that's about 67 hours.  Throw in some sleep and easily in less than 4 days.

Without aerodynamics to do it in 67 hours
You would need 30 kWh of battery on the bike, bringing the weight to over 600 pounds for the bike alone.
This is just to get through west texas, Arizona and New Mexico where locations with high power electricity can be 150 miles apart.  Otherwise you could do it with less battery, but would spend a lot of time charging at 110v which would make some stops 8 hours or more.   To charge 30 kWh in 2 hours, you will need 15 kW of charging.  That would be 6 Elcons.  Your bike already weighs over 600 pounds and now you need another 100 pounds in chargers.   And then where do you source 15 kW?  I know how because I've done it, but it's a pain and requires another 100 pounds of thick AWG 14-50 extension cords that can weigh 50 pounds themselves to stretch 100 feet at RV parks that stagger 50 amp sites with 30 amp sites.   And some places you wont be able to do that at all.  You will only be able to get 6 kW from a public Jplug because the RV park is full or only has 30 amp outlets left.  In that case to charge 30 kWh at 6 kW it will take you 5 hours.   About the best you can hope for is 5-6 days I think. 

Even with all the battery and charging you will still be twice as slow as a bike that has half the coefficient of drag.  Plus you will weigh twice as much and the bike and chargers and cables will probably also double the cost.

I can't repeat it enough.  More battery is good.  Charging fast is better, but aerodynamics make logical sense in every way first.

Yet I can't deny that marketing shows people are scared to look different.  Everyone wants to look the same as everyone else because they are afraid their friends will make fun of them.  When you are riding the bike down the road all you see is the road, so it doesn't matter if the bike looked like spongebob with his squarepants.

Changing perception takes time.  When the Ford Taurus came out in 1986 everyone hated how it looked. (it was so strange looking then they used it as the police cars in the movie Robocop) Now almost every car made is more aerodynamic than the Taurus was.

http://www.ford-taurus.org/taurusinfo/Specials/RoboCopMovie/RoboCop2.jpg

Point is you can't say I will never like the way that looks.  All you can say is I've been programmed not to like the way that looks now, but that could easily change. 

I'm not saying a full Vetter streamliner is for everyone, but i'd like to see something halfway between that and the looks of sportbikes like the Hayabusa.

I love Zero but I always laugh at their motto.  "Zero Motorcycles is unencumbered by conventional thinking about how we design, manufacture and sell high performance electric motorcycles"  There is a typo there. 

What they meant to say is "Zero Motorcycles is VERY encumbered by conventional thinking about how we design our motorcycles to look like everyone else's motorcycles on the market"

And rightfully so, because otherwise no one would buy them.  The problem isn't that the science isn't there to do anything we want today easily. 

The problem is for most of us, science is much less important than our fear of looking different.  That our ego might be hurt by someone making fun of how our bike looks.   Maybe one day that will change and people won't fear being different if it makes scientific sense to do so.  One day a low cost aerodynamic motorcycle can come out of the closet without fear of ridicule by haters. 


One day we can only hope.   Until then, we must "charge on" as fast as we can (pun intended)

« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 07:13:12 PM by Electric Terry »
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MostlyBonkers

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #168 on: January 27, 2016, 07:04:10 PM »

Bloody brilliant Terry! I hope someone at Zero is listening. How's your testing going? Any news?
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Erasmo

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #169 on: January 27, 2016, 08:31:00 PM »

Good write up Terry. I just wanted to comment on one thing, in the foreseeable future the fast charger will stand on the side on of the road instead of having to take it with you in a top case.
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NEW2elec

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #170 on: January 27, 2016, 09:09:05 PM »

Erasmo  YES YES YES! The stations should be able to charge at any rate at any voltage at any amperage  AC/DC whatever.  If the EV's were to really catch on and you had thousands of them in every city why would everyone carry around a $3000 charger that only gets used when they charge it instead of having the charging equipment stay with the station for everybody to use.

Now don't get me wrong the elcons and digi chargers are solving a problem that people have NOW so it is the best option for now and I applaud the EE's who are able to make things like this happen.  But logistically it would be better to have the charging equipment at the stations.  Like I said on page one it's like carrying an oil refinery in your car.
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Justin Andrews

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #171 on: January 27, 2016, 10:35:38 PM »

I absolutely agree Terry, and I was really hoping that Zero was going to announce a fairing for its 2016 line, and was quite disappointed that they did'nt.

Fixing the Cd of the bike is tricky however, even the default riding position is not really that great in that regard either.

I too would like to see a more "stylish" vetter, or vetter like fairing. :)
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Chocula

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #172 on: January 28, 2016, 12:53:58 AM »

Something like the land speed type fairings might make a reasonable compromise between performance and aesthetics.

Obviously they would need to accommodate headlights, blinkers, license plates, etc., but clear plastic in the right spots should allow those without impacting performance much.  The look of the Vetter fairing, though the king of performance, just does not appeal to me.  The land speed look works for me, but I suspect costs would be more than I could justify at this time.


http://www.airtech-streamlining.com/landspeed/landspeed.htm
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Erasmo

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #173 on: January 28, 2016, 01:22:54 AM »

BMW also had a nice design with the K1:

Erasmo  YES YES YES! The stations should be able to charge at any rate at any voltage at any amperage  AC/DC whatever.  If the EV's were to really catch on and you had thousands of them in every city why would everyone carry around a $3000 charger that only gets used when they charge it instead of having the charging equipment stay with the station for everybody to use.

Now don't get me wrong the elcons and digi chargers are solving a problem that people have NOW so it is the best option for now and I applaud the EE's who are able to make things like this happen.  But logistically it would be better to have the charging equipment at the stations.  Like I said on page one it's like carrying an oil refinery in your car.
That's something ABB had understood very well:



High power(43kW) AC, CCS and Chademo in one unit.
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mrwilsn

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #174 on: January 28, 2016, 08:54:50 AM »


Yet I can't deny that marketing shows people are scared to look different.  Everyone wants to look the same as everyone else because they are afraid their friends will make fun of them.  When you are riding the bike down the road all you see is the road, so it doesn't matter if the bike looked like spongebob with his squarepants.

I'm not saying a full Vetter streamliner is for everyone, but i'd like to see something halfway between that and the looks of sportbikes like the Hayabusa.

I love Zero but I always laugh at their motto.  "Zero Motorcycles is unencumbered by conventional thinking about how we design, manufacture and sell high performance electric motorcycles"  There is a typo there. 

What they meant to say is "Zero Motorcycles is VERY encumbered by conventional thinking about how we design our motorcycles to look like everyone else's motorcycles on the market"

And rightfully so, because otherwise no one would buy them.  The problem isn't that the science isn't there to do anything we want today easily.

I agree with you but I don't accept it as a valid excuse from Zero.

Honestly, better aero is such an obvious and cost effective solution Zero should be embarrassed they haven't addressed it by now.  Especially since they could easily improve range 15% with a design that was focused on aesthetics but followed very basic aero principals. No wind tunnel testing required. (Just ask ZEV for some pointers, right benswing?[emoji6]

Zero could easily offer one or more dealer installed fairing options without jeopardizing sales because it looks outside the norm.  Once they have an outer mold line design and they do the engineering to mount it for one year/model the additional engineering for them to make it available as a retrofit kit for almost every bike they have made is relatively small.

You have to be bold enough to offer something new and different before you can start changing perception.

Imagine walking into a Zero dealer and the salesman says to you...

"Here's the Zero SR. The stock naked bike can go 80 miles at 70mph.  We offer an aftermarket sport fairing for an extra $600 installed that will boost range to 100 miles.  We also offer a streamliner fairing that will boost range to 150 miles which costs $1k installed and the kit also adds more storage space.  You keep the stock plastic and it will take you about an hour if you ever want to switch back to stock."

Now imagine you are the proud owner of an older model S (or SR, DS etc.) and Zero announces that you can buy these fairings from a dealer to retrofit your bike.

Any takers?

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 08:57:28 AM by mrwilsn »
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MrDude_1

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #175 on: January 28, 2016, 09:04:24 AM »

You guys do realize that nothing is stopping you from getting some sharkskinz and fitting them like every other racer does...right?
Or is that a stopper because it will look like a CBR/S1000R/R1/R6/ducati/aprillia/gsxr??
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BrianTRice@gmail.com

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #176 on: January 28, 2016, 09:11:40 AM »

You guys do realize that nothing is stopping you from getting some sharkskinz and fitting them like every other racer does...right?
Or is that a stopper because it will look like a CBR/S1000R/R1/R6/ducati/aprillia/gsxr??

Unlikely to fit a DS, and someone has to take the risk of verifying fit the first time on an S/SR and explain the mounting to others. Also, racing fairings are probably not going to reduce drag enough per the cost.

They're in Florida, apparently, which might help if someone nearby them visits in person for a fitment.
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Lipo423

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #177 on: January 28, 2016, 12:03:52 PM »

Terry you made a nice post…

This is a quite interesting discussion, each of us -either stated or not- have different specific requirements…while mostly of us do need/want more range (wherever is coming from. Batteries, charging...), aesthetics are also important (I personally would like to ride a bike, not a tank)

This conversation may took place at Zero at some point:

Marketing: We need to follow the latest market trends (naked, but powerful bikes)
Engineering: We need to get more range and power (overall performance)
Service: Bikes have to be serviced easily and do not break down (serviceability and reliability)
Sales: We need to get everything! (sales always want everything)  :D
Management: We need to make money

Zero will come up with a new platform in around 2018, which hopefully will have a little of everything (just to make a simple statement)
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togo

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #178 on: February 01, 2016, 08:30:44 PM »

Are we still speaking hypothetically?
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wavelet

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Re: Hypothetically, if you could charge a zero in UNDER 1 hour
« Reply #179 on: February 09, 2016, 06:02:12 AM »

Interesting discussion...
Just wanted to point out, it's not just an aesthetics issue.
In the US, motorbikes are primarily leisure gadgets. Virtually everyone owning one has a car (or cars, plural) as their primary form of transport.
This isn't the case everywhere.
Those full aerodynamic fairings are simply too large (both length- & width-wise) -- any bike I own has to be able to park on a narrow urban sidewalk, otherwise it's not usable as transportation.
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