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[Jozzer]

 Hi guys,

   First post here, wanted to come introduce myslf and one of our bikes.

  Heres some video of our electric Ducati, fitted wwith dual Agnimotors, running at 90v on a kelly 120v 1200A controller.
 First up, motors in series (good for 55mph, very high torque, very controllable throttle and regen)
Jozzbikes Ducati.

 Next motors in parallel, top speed 110mph or so. 91mph max achived on this run (part 2)
NA1 Jozzbikes Ducati
NA2

 I have data files (excel) matching these video's showing current/speed/ah/v/time but when I tried to attach them I was told they were too large (and the long thread I had written was lost!). Should you wish to view them, drop me an email (steve@jozzbikes.co.uk) and I'll forward them on. A sample of the file looks like this: (time, AH, volts, amps, speed, miles)
13:40.0   12.046   79.25   344.2   70.15   13.056
13:40.2   12.066   78.81   361.1   70.94   13.06
13:40.4   12.086   78.55   344.6   72.26   13.064
13:40.6   12.107   78.15   392.1   73.15   13.068
13:40.8   12.128   77.69   371.2   74.26   13.072
13:41.0   12.148   77.44   366.5   75.26   13.076
13:41.2   12.169   77.17   368   76.04   13.08
13:41.4   12.19   76.85   376.6   76.79   13.084
13:41.6   12.212   76.39   405   77.95   13.089
13:41.8   12.235   76.08   403.2   78.75   13.093
13:42.0   12.256   75.55   390.2   79.9   13.098
13:42.2   12.279   75.41   412.5   80.63   13.102
13:42.4   12.302   74.85   407.6   81.62   13.107
13:42.6   12.325   74.75   412.9   82.2   13.111
13:42.8   12.347   74.79   396.5   82.55   13.116
13:43.0   12.371   74.14   434.8   83.52   13.12
13:43.2   12.394   73.74   420.2   84.08   13.125
13:43.4   12.419   73.57   440   84.61   13.13
13:43.6   12.442   73.88   416   85.3   13.134
13:43.8   12.464   73.73   405.1   85.84   13.139
13:44.0   12.487   73.72   402.4   86.41   13.144
13:44.2   12.508   73.92   387.4   86.94   13.149
13:44.4   12.528   74.17   364   87.37   13.154
13:44.6   12.55   74.56   392.3   87.96   13.159
13:44.8   12.571   75.02   375.4   88.12   13.163
13:45.0   12.59   75.04   341.6   88.67   13.168
13:45.2   12.611   74.78   382.2   89   13.173
13:45.4   12.631   75.32   350.3   89.3   13.178
13:45.6   12.649   75   335.9   89.49   13.183
13:45.8   12.667   75.61   327.5   89.74   13.188
13:46.0   12.687   75.16   348.1   90.03   13.193
13:46.2   12.706   75.72   351.5   90.17   13.198
13:46.4   12.726   75.44   350.3   90.32   13.203
13:46.6   12.745   75.59   338.6   90.6   13.208
13:46.8   12.762   75.87   320   90.71   13.213
13:47.0   12.781   75.61   333.3   90.88   13.218
13:47.2   12.797   75.64   298   91.23   13.223
13:47.4   12.815   76.01   316.7   91.09   13.229
13:47.6   12.833   75.87   320.5   91.15   13.234
13:47.8   12.85   75.66   301.1   91.45   13.239
13:48.0   12.866   75.67   298.3   91.39   13.244
13:48.2   12.884   75.98   313.5   91.41   13.249
13:48.4   12.899   76.12   282.3   91.44   13.254
13:48.6   12.917   75.89   325   91.57   13.259
13:48.8   12.935   75.67   319.8   91.3   13.264
13:49.0   12.952   75.63   306.7   91.02   13.269
13:49.2   12.97   75.76   316   91.13   13.274
13:49.4   12.978   81.97   151.8   91.14   13.279
13:49.6   12.978   89.23   -0.1   90.14   13.284
13:49.8   12.978   89.7   -1.1   89.14   13.289
13:50.0   12.978   90.01   1.4   87.86   13.294
13:50.2   12.978   90.28   -0.1   86.78   13.299
13:50.4   12.978   90.47   -1.6   85.67   13.304
13:50.6   12.978   90.65   1.4   84.82   13.308
13:50.8   12.978   90.81   -1.9   83.72   13.313
13:51.0   12.977   91.7   -16.1   82.91   13.318
13:51.2   12.992   80.01   275.1   82.35   13.322
13:51.4   13.016   72.65   419.7   82.53   13.327
13:51.6   13.041   72.36   459   83.34   13.331
13:51.8   13.062   72.71   385   84.13   13.336
13:52.0   13.084   72.75   388.5   84.75   13.341
13:52.2   13.105   73.25   375.3   85.27   13.346
13:52.4   13.125   73.11   369.8   85.97   13.35
13:52.6   13.146   73.21   366.6   86.37   13.355
13:52.8   13.165   73.21   349.9   87.04   13.36
13:53.0   13.185   73.47   355.1   87.25   13.365
13:53.2   13.204   73.89   335.6   87.71   13.37
13:53.4   13.221   74.29   318.3   88.27   13.375
13:53.6   13.239   74.1   317.8   88.75   13.38
13:53.8   13.257   74.29   319.6   89   13.384
13:54.0   13.273   74.74   297.6   89.36   13.389
13:54.2   13.291   74.34   313.2   89.52   13.394
13:54.4   13.308   74.79   321.1   89.75   13.399
13:54.6   13.324   74.59   285.8   90.23   13.404
13:54.8   13.34   75.01   290.5   90.47   13.409
13:55.0   13.357   75.08   298.6   90.62   13.414
13:55.2   13.374   74.87   311.4   90.98   13.42
13:55.4   13.391   75.11   302.1   91.02   13.425
13:55.6   13.407   75.37   293.6   91.24   13.43
13:55.8   13.423   75.29   283.7   91.5   13.435
13:56.0   13.423   87.54   5.5   91.11   13.44
13:56.2   13.423   88.33   -5.8   90.39   13.445
13:56.4   13.423   88.73   1.1   89.55   13.45
13:56.6   13.423   89.01   -0.4   88.72   13.455
13:56.8   13.423   89.26   0.4   87.9   13.46
13:57.0   13.423   89.48   -1.6   87.12   13.464
13:57.2   13.423   89.66   1.4   85.97   13.469
13:57.4   13.423   89.83   0.9   85.37   13.474
13:57.6   13.423   90.01   0.4   84.25   13.479
13:57.8   13.423   90.16   -2.9   83.43   13.483
13:58.0   13.423   90.31   1.2   82.76   13.488
13:58.2   13.423   90.44   -0.8   81.72   13.492
13:58.4   13.423   90.55   -0.7   80.93   13.497
13:58.6   13.423   90.69   0.4   80.36   13.501
13:58.8   13.423   90.83   6.3   79.68   13.506
13:59.0   13.423   90.94   -1.4   79.01   13.51
13:59.2   13.423   91.07   3.4   78.37   13.515
13:59.4   13.423   91.15   0.6   77.75   13.519
13:59.6   13.424   91.29   2.4   77.06   13.523
13:59.8   13.423   91.36   -0.9   76.42   13.527
14:00.0   13.424   91.48   0.5   75.76   13.532


Still working on getting full power from this setup, both battery's and controller are short of peak power, but already have to be carefull of wheelies and wheelspins in series mode!

Hope you find it interesting,
 Steve

PS, on another note, Jozzbikes Aprilia is up for sale in the UK, see website for more info:)

[Bogan]

looks pretty cool, any chance of some pics of the bike?

[Jozzer]

 Its currently having a fairing made for it (more streamlined), but heres a walkaround as it was last month..

Electric Ducati walkaround from Jozzbikes.

[NewAge]

Hey Steve, could you please provide me with a simple analysis of the two speed principle you mention on your website, running in series then parallel?
I'm having a little trouble grasping the concept  does it require pre setting or can it be switched on the fly while riding or 

[skadamo]

Hey, thanks for posting Steve! The Ducati looks great so far. The series/parallel information is very interesting  I've been to your site and it has tons of great information.

NewAge, I was reading this post which might help explain it. I would like to hear more about how it works. Is this what you are doing with your Ducati?

The first half of the track the motors are connected in series and both motors get the full current and thus give the full torque. About half way down the track the motors need more voltage to continue to accelerate and it shifts electrically so that the motors are in parallel and get the full voltage to reach higher speed.

http://iloapp.evahakansson.se/blog/www?Home&post=38

[Jozzer]

 Hi guys,

 The series parallel arrangement consists of 3 Kilavac contactors that arrange the motors either in series (so each see's half the controllers volts, and its full currnet) or parallel (so each motor see's full voltage and half the controllers output current).
 In series mode it damn near pulls your arms off if you open the throttle from a standstill! For the moment there is a small switch near the throttle to switch back and forth, but I will be wiring it up through some electronics to either automate the switchover (so above halfspeed it switches itself to parallel, and back to series at below 40% speed), or keep it manual (with a smaller easier to operate switch) but add a failsafe so it cant be switched to series when the motors RPM is too high (this would result in higher than pack voltage at the controller, and will cause damage). Another part of the switching arrangemet is that you need it to cut the throttle (or regen) for 100ms or so whilst switching to save the contactors from heavy load switching and backlash. For the moment I've just put the switch far enough away so that you have to let go of the throttle to reach it.

 I'm just waiting for some more electronics to arrive and I'll set the data logging back up again and take more vid/pics for you all. Part of the reason I havn't taken more pics is that the fairing is in a poor state, and I'm waiting for a custom made reduced drag fairing to be made up so I can get it in "JozzBikes" colours and stickers.
 Still like to get more power from this setup, Kelly have offered to upgrade the controller again (for a fee) to increase power, especially at high revs. These motors are hardly getting pushed at all yet, highest temp so far has been 42C.

Steve

[frodus]

I was wondering about that.... if you disconnect/reconnect while the controller isn't at 0% PWM, I bet it could really spike some voltage into the controller. It'd be nice if kelly could do series parallel switching (reduce to 0%, then switch the contactors).

get us video soon, even if its not the best, its nice to see the progression!

[picasso]

Jozzer, thanks so much for you post with the data. If you'd like a simple place to host some files....http://stashbox.org is your friend =) Keep the data coming and Id love some temp data on the motors to go with your power / speed. Do you find the need to watch the temps of the motors?

[Jozzer]

Hi Frodus,

 It's going to be fairly simple to make an independant board to do the job, TBH I'd never trust a controller to switch the contactor anyway, since its controller failure you are using the contactor to protect against.

 As I said Picasso, the motors are not getting above 40C external temperature, and just show a gradual rise throughout the journey, no peaks or troughs to record yet. In my book that means I'm not pushing it hard enough, but at least its safe to let others use it without fear of breakage!

 Steve

[Bogan]

had a breif think about your switching problem, seems it would be very easily acheived with a custom contorller, or two controllers (one for each motor) as you could just use a solid state switching device and switch when the motor is in flyback current mode. With a single controller you probly wanna change the throttle to whatever pwm correspondes to zero current, then switch the contactors, you could even give the throttle a 'blip' to match the new pwm required, similar to shifting on a conventional bike.

Well at least i think thatd work

[Jozzer]

Just one circuit to stop the relay switching to series when motor RPM is higher than 3000rpm, and to cut throttle voltage to 0v until switchover has finished is all I have planned. I can see motor current via the 2 ammeters at the top of the dash, and here is never anything flowing unless regen or throttle is active. Mr Dube hinted I should allow 100ms or so to allow any stray currents to die out, and certainly switching the switch I have now as fast as possible causes no ill effects.

 No need for any "blipping", since I am not changing motor or gear speed, just changing the range of operation so to speak.
 Although with an alltrax controller throttle position = speed, with this Kelly throttle position = current.

 I'll post up details of the design when finished for those interested..

[Bogan]

with the kelly controller blipping the throttle would be a good idea if you have fast switching, as the current will double when you go from series to parallel.

But i agree, keep it simple is a good place to start, 100ms isnt very long to be off the power if you are controlling when that happens, however if it was automatic I think 100ms would become very annoying every time it changed.

[NewAge]

Yeah, I think that I get it now, sure would like to see it scratched out on paper though 

Thanks

[Jozzer]

 Series Parallel switching schematic:)
http://jozzbikes.co.uk/PHEV/electric_motorbikes/advice.php

Steve

[skadamo]

Hey Jozzer, any progress on this project?