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[drumgadget]

I'll second the thanks to pinaz for this thread ..... lots of food for thought!

Today, my "new to me" 2011 Zero S arrived from Minnesota, after an arduous 3-week journey without connection to its life-preserving 110vac umbilical.  I'm happy to report that the bike booted up normally, showed battery "full", and put up with being flogged for 10 miles before getting a refreshing charge.  Did I just luck out?  We'll see, eh?

Mike

[manitou]

trade in credit towards a 2014?  how much trade in?  Can that still be attained?

[pinaz]

trade in credit towards a 2014?  how much trade in?  Can that still be attained?

Zero sent letters to 2010-2012 model owners in late August offering a trade-in of the "classic" models towards 2014 models.  If memory serves, it was roughly $2k to $5k depending on the year and model.  There was no clarity as to how long the offer was valid.

When I spoke with a dealer over a month ago, only 2014 DS and S models (with maximum batteries?) were available for purchase.

The source of accurate information about availability and trade-in price would be a Zero dealer.

[tempest76]

So I tried very hard to take advantage of this offer.  I own a 2010 S in excellent operating condition (I spent $1000 a year ago to have the factory replace the controller and motor brushes at about 3500 miles).

The trade-in credit is $5K toward a 2014 bike.  Looks like my model fetches around $2500 here in the SF Bay area on Craigslist (people try to get more, but they stay listed until the price gets lowered toward $2500).  So, at face value Zero is offering a premium of $2500 in order to take the old bike off the road.

Unfortunately, this $5K trade-in credit seems only to be in effect against the full MSRP (+ freight and dealer prep) - I have not been able to find a dealer willing to negotiate a lower price even though the 2014s are now 2 model years old with less attractive tires and breaks, and priced higher than the 2016s.  So, the net price of the 2014 with program trade-in credit vs a 2016 selling my bike on Craigslist is about the same but I'd have a bike with considerably less value that the 2016.

I did find dealers with demo models (under 200 miles on the odometers) that were willing to deal on price, but Zero will not include these bikes in the program. 

My conclusion - they don't really want for this program to work, its a PR effort.  No problem with that, but I wasted time and effort following up on it.  I'll probably buy at 2016 in a couple of years off Craigslist.

[pinaz]

Zero did present it as if it were some sort of reward to loyal owners, which I think is disingenuous.
 
I presume that Zero telegraphed their intents on 2016 pricing to dealers prior to the public disclosure.  The dealer I dealt with seemed to know that it wasn't the value that was claimed.  As soon as the 2016 models became public, the penny dropped.

[peter]

pinaz

I agree with the disingenuous comment - and I think that's being kind. Zero's letter speaks of "As a way of saying thank you to those early adopters.... we have a special upgrade program  available". When it seems they just wanted to get rid of some old stock they were stuck with, and dispose of some older bikes that are just problems for them in coming years.

For me, this was the last straw. Getting the smarmy letter from Zero making the offer - given the long run of problems we've had - was eyerollingly bad. A reminder our multiple hassles culminating in the dangerous throttle problem our 2012 XU developed - details on this thread: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4876.0

I realize other folks have had different experiences in their dealings with Zero. Mine leave me with the impression that Zero has an uneasy relationship with my concepts of decent behavior.

We've been trying to decide what to do with the Zero and have come to the - when you're in a hole, stop digging - point. Not sure how we're going to get rid of it yet, but I'm looking forward to never seeing it again.
Peter

[ColoPaul]

It depends on how you want to spin it, I suppose.

Tempest76 has an old bike in "excellent" condition, and concludes that the program is "about the same" versus selling on craigslist.  But what about the zero owners with bikes that are in "lemon" condition? - this is a great deal and certainly is good will from Zero for them.  To me, seems like that's the intent of the program.

I took my "spotless" 2012 to the Zero dealer this spring and asked about trade-in value if I got a 2015SR - the dealer (who sold me the Zero for $12K 3 years ago) wouldn't even offer me a dime!  Clearly not a hot, easy-to-sell commodity!  And craigslist is no panacea either.  So Zero offering me $6000 (even if you derate the amount for 2014 v 2016 and 2014 MSRP etc) looks very reasonable.

Zero, for whatever reason, ended up with some extra 2014's.  They could have just offered them to dealers at a discount, but they chose instead to offer 'early adopters' the bikes first.  Yes, by making the offer related to the 2014MSRP they 'poof' up the discount so it looks bigger than it really is - Still I think it's a sincere effort to help out those with out-of-warranty troublesome bikes.

[ReeveSteves]

It certainly doesn't indicate an overall pattern of behavior on Zero's part.

I bought a 2011 XU that was NOS. I liked it so much that I bought a 2014 SR as soon as it was available. Then the XU developed a no drive problem. Even though I had two-year warranty paperwork, Zero gave me a huge fight over doing a parts warranty, indicated they would pay for it, then said it was damage to the throttle which was causing the problem. I replaced the throttle on my nickel. A few miles later, the bike was dead again. Zero did step up to fix it - so far, they've replaced the MBB and gone through the wiring harness. It's been six months. The bike is still dead. They say they are out of ideas. I'm left with a bike I can't sell, and that they won't take as trade in since I've already bought a 2014.

Am I upset? Yes. Have I stopped talking up Zero to my friends? Yes. Am I slagging them off? No. But at this point I've basically written off the price of the XU even though it's barely four years old, and was sold just two and a half years ago. It's the truth about being on the cutting edge: sometimes you bleed, sometimes for thousands of dollars. I don't expect to ever get a cent that I spent on this bike back. That really ruins the math on cost per mile.

Zero still has the opportunity to step up and do the right thing. Right now they're not even returning my phone calls or emails. Getting the letter in the middle of this process was an absolutely offensive action. The next move is theirs. I feel badly for the dealer, who has been really nice to work with and now has this bike taking up space in their shop for 6+ months, absolutely useless to them and to me.

(this is, by the way, ignoring the problem with the 2014 that I'm going to just live with now that it's out of labor warranty: the steering lock broke. I'm not going to pay to fix it even though the parts are covered, because I don't trust them to not break something else in the meanwhile or find some way to charge me for it)

[Harlan]

Anyone still looking for a deal on the trade in should give us a ring. We have a few brand new 2014 models we'd be willing to make a deal on.

Hollywood Electrics
323-654-8271

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

[ReeveSteves]

Follow up here: Zero is buying back my 'lemon' 2011 XU for an accessory credit that is a bit more than I could get for it in working condition on CL. This seems very fair and is a company standing behind their product, even if it took about 7 months to make them do it. Once things started moving they were very straightforward to work with. I feel very supported and it's been a great weight lifted off my shoulders to not think about the bike, which I had written off at this point.

[JustPassinThru]

I'll add to the praise of Zero.  I've had my 2012 DS ZF-9 for 3000 miles now, and NO issues, concerns, problems.  Range is a little less but it's consistent.  Power is not what the 2015 demonstrator showed me, but it's as fast or faster than my 650 gas machine.  Quiet, responsive, and a blast in traffic or on trail.

I'm looking for problems. Mine was one of the last to have a vented-case motor; and I'm sure that will fill up with crud and water and kill it eventually.  In THEORY a new motor should be a bolt-on; but I guess they changed the voltage standard as well as software along with the new motor.  AND are not supporting this one.

I did make inquiries into the Early Adopter program - my chin hit the bricks when I heard what they'd credit me.  UNTIL...I found out that it was only on 2014s (they have a few in stock at the factory) and they are not cutting deals.  Had they sharpened things down a few thousands, given that the 2014s are already obsolete...I'd have been there now.  But they wouldn't and I won't.

We will see.  I may have a Zero for a few years, cheap - or I may have a "project bike" for the next owner to buy for a few hundred $$$.

[JustPassinThru]

Those are good points, but I think their marketing philosophy is wrongheaded.

The Japanese automakers got a toehold in this country by approaching the sale, not as the object to be obtained by any means necessary, but as the start of a long-term relationship.  Zero could do well by adopting a similar view.

Technology is leaping ahead on these things.  They could take ADVANTAGE of this by either offering Upgrade programs for older machines - let's face it, it's just the battery pack, software and motor.  What costs is the engineering.  Sell parts/technical data for rebuilding - and make it known that buying a Zero is NOT a risk.

Or, conversely, extend their buyback - and remanufacture their bought-back bikes.  Those frames are sturdy and well-balanced - put new power and batteries on them!  Sell them less-expensively, and get new buyers in the door.

They can make money a little at a time expanding their customer base; or they can work on fleecing techno-geeks and Early Adopters and then when they run out of gulls, just close the doors.  Maybe they don't believe in the long-term prospects of this product.

That's a shame, if true, because I DO.  The motorcycle is the ideal platform for electric vehicle power.  Compare all the hassle of a gas bike to the ease, cleanliness and straightforward performance of the Zero...NO...CONTEST.

[zap mc]

Thanks to Pinaz and all the contributors for a very illuminating article.

If Zero was a normal company run on commerial lines " for profit" then they would have adapted or died by now, however they are continuously bankrolled by Investors and hence no matter how bad they do there are no commercial consequences for their actions. They can carry on with engineering bloopers and treat their customers like something stuck to the bottom of their shoe and it makes no difference because they all get their pay check at the end of the month regardless. They live in a commercial twilight zone where the normal rules of business do not apply hence why everyone here is perplexed by their seemingly illogical and uncaring actions.

The 3 phase AC drivetrain has transformed range to a point where an electric motorcycle is now a viable proposition to some with enough money but the technology is so experimental that even the manufacturers can't make it reliable and use the customers as a fee paying R&D test bed for air cooled dogma. At some point battery technology ( Lithium Sulphur ?) will advance to the stage where DC systems will become viable again and someone will make a simple and reliable motorcycle at significantly less cost that we can all fix when it goes wrong!

[BrianTRice@gmail.com]

If Zero was a normal company run on commerial lines " for profit" then they would have adapted or died by now, however they are continuously bankrolled by Investors and hence no matter how bad they do there are no commercial consequences for their actions. They can carry on with engineering bloopers and treat their customers like something stuck to the bottom of their shoe and it makes no difference because they all get their pay check at the end of the month regardless. They live in a commercial twilight zone where the normal rules of business do not apply hence why everyone here is perplexed by their seemingly illogical and uncaring actions.

What on earth are you talking about? What company has done or could do better than Zero at any of this? We're lucky to have electric motorcycle products at all for under $30,000, which still wouldn't turn a profit.

The choice right now is between a flawed but delivering 10 year old vehicle startup company and a handful of boutique small batch manufacturers who also aren't turning a profit, offer even less support, and charge a much higher price.

[Richard230]

Plus, I continue to note that even the major multi-billion dollar motorcycle companies have yet to enter the market, or even to show off a $$$ concept bike with better performance or range than the production Zero. If it was easy to make an electric motorcycle that had better performance than the Zero, to say nothing of doing so at a similar price, I am sure that they would do so, if only for "political" reasons to gain "global warming" green points and perhaps stockpiling "carbon credits" to sell or trade in the future.  The fact that this hasn't happened, leads me to believe that developing a "Zero beater", at a price that most consumers can afford, is not all that easy.    

To tell you the truth, I am amazed that Zero is still in business, as most startups building commercial products seem to fail after a few years, if they even last that long.  While Zero may not have the established distribution and customer service network that the major manufacturers have developed after being in business for over 60 years, I really can't fault their progress over the past 10 years. The important thing is that they continue to improve every year.