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[Burton]

Think my bike might be a hazard to ride now

Had it loose throttle response several times on way home. Each time got the 4 1 error for board temperature out of range. It hasn't rained for a week or more, the battery temp on app read 104, motor got up to 131, controller 98. The temp right now is about 84F with about 75% humidity.

After a couple times I switched to eco (which I have set to be exactly half my settings in sport at the DVT level since I have a clutch "brake lever" for the motor) and didn't go above 55.

I got home but the speed limit is 65 and most go 75 and there often isn't a shoulder on the slow lane side :/

Anyone have suggestions I am about to dive into the controller or odbii but I can't pull down full readable logs with my connector as it crashes the terminal.

I did send the logs to someone to convert them for me since zero never responded to my log request last time I sent them (when this happened the day after it rained)

Beginning to think something is loose in the battery case or it was just coincidental that I hit a bump before loosing throttle response.

[Burton]

 03745     09/09/2015 16:29:38   Riding                     PackTemp: h 39C, l 39C, PackSOC: 89%, Vpack:109.541V, MotAmps: 143, BattAmps: 132, Mods: 10, MotTemp:  60C, CtrlTemp:  40C, MotRPM:4146
 03746     09/09/2015 16:30:08   SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame      Error Code: 0x1000, Error Reg: 0x01, Sevcon Error Code: 0x5182, Data: 01 02 00, Unknown
 03747     09/09/2015 16:30:24   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive OFF
 03748     09/09/2015 16:30:24   DEBUG: Sevcon Has Turned Off Contactor Drive
 03749     09/09/2015 16:30:24   Module 00 Disconnecting HP  modvolt: 111.354V
 03750     09/09/2015 16:30:24   Module 01 Disconnecting HP  modvolt:   0.000V
 03751     09/09/2015 16:30:25   Contactor Welded
 03752     09/09/2015 16:30:25   INFO:  Disabling Charger 1
 03753     09/09/2015 16:30:25   INFO:  Disabling Charger 2
 03754     09/09/2015 16:30:25   Module 00 Disconnecting HP  modvolt: 111.355V
 03755     09/09/2015 16:30:25   Module 01 Disconnecting HP  modvolt:   0.000V
 03756     09/09/2015 16:30:25   Module 00 Contactor is now Open
 03757     09/09/2015 16:30:25   DEBUG: Module 00 FETs are now Open
 03758                       0   DEBUG: Reset: Power-On, External
 03759                       0   Power On                   Key Switch
 03760                       0   Key On
 03761                       0   Module 00 Disconnecting HP  modvolt:   0.000V
 03762                       0   Module 01 Disconnecting HP  modvolt:   0.000V
 03763                       0   CAN0 ACK error
 03764                       0   Module 00 CAN Link Up
 03765                       0   Module 00 Registered       modvolt: 111.717V
 03766     09/09/2015 16:30:46   DEBUG: Module scheme changed from None mode to Running mode
 03767     09/09/2015 16:30:47   Sevcon Turned On
 03768     09/09/2015 16:30:48   CAN1 BIT0 error
 03769     09/09/2015 16:30:48   Sevcon CAN Link Up
 03770     09/09/2015 16:30:48   SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame      Error Code: 0x1000, Error Reg: 0x01, Sevcon Error Code: 0x4981, Data: 00 00 00, Throttle Fault
 03771     09/09/2015 16:30:48   SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame      Error Code: 0x0000, Error Reg: 0x00, Sevcon Error Code: 0x4981, Data: 00 00 27, Throttle Fault
 03772     09/09/2015 16:30:48   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive ON.
 03773     09/09/2015 16:30:48   Module 00 Connecting HP    modvolt: 111.742V, maxsys: 111.747V, minsys: 111.747V, diff: 0.000V
 03774     09/09/2015 16:30:48   DEBUG: Module 00 FETs are now Closed
 03775     09/09/2015 16:30:49   Module 00 Contactor is now Closed
 03776     09/09/2015 16:30:49   INFO:  Enabling Charger 1
 03777     09/09/2015 16:30:49   INFO:  Enabling Charger 2
 03778     09/09/2015 16:30:49   Contactor took 378 ms to close
 03779     09/09/2015 16:30:49   
C:100437 B:111187
C:100375 B:111125
C:100375 B:111125
C:100312 B:111125
C:100250 B:111125
C:100250 B:111125
C:100250 B:111000
C:100187 B:111000
C:111687 B:111000
C:111750 B:111000
 03780     09/09/2015 16:30:55   Riding                     PackTemp: h 40C, l 39C, PackSOC: 88%, Vpack:111.797V, MotAmps:   0, BattAmps:   1, Mods: 10, MotTemp:  61C, CtrlTemp:  38C, MotRPM:   0
 03781     09/09/2015 16:30:55   Batt Dischg Cur Limited    285 A

For those in the know the "Unknown" is my analog 2 input I use for motor braking.

Going to check all wires / connectors on the bike now. While I don't think my throttle or motor braking lever being out of range or grounding would cause a 4 1 error it is worth looking over all cables anyway :/

[Burton]

Red text are channels not assigned to anything in DVT

Went around bike and moved / wiggled / pulled all cables attached to the throttle and or "foot brake" and neither caused any issues with the voltage readings.

See attached image for readings / settings from DVT if your interested

[Burton]

*************************************************
*           EEPROM usage statistics             *
*************************************************

** EEPROM Totals **
   - Total bytes     :  131072 (0x020000)
   - Sector Size     :   32768 (0x008000)
   - Page Size       :     256 (0x000100)
   - Total Sectors   :       4
   - Total Pages     :     512

** Stats Area **
   - Base offset     : 0x000000
   - Bytes Allocated :     512 (0x200)
   - Bytes Used      :     312 (60%)

** System Settings Area **
   - Base offset     : 0x000257
   - Bytes Allocated :     512 (0x200)
   - Bytes Used      :     192 (37%)

** Error Log Area **
   - Base offset     : 0x000400
   - Bytes Allocated :     512 (0x200)
   - Bytes Used      :     499 (97%)
   - Entries Found   :      31

** Event Log Area **
   - Base offset     : 0x000600
   - Bytes Allocated :  129536 (0x1FA00)
   - Bytes Used      :  106086 (81%)
   - Entries Found   :    4123

** Total Used **
   - Total Allocated :  131072 (0x20000)
   - Total Used      :  107089 (81%)

Seems my logs are nearly full ... I recall someone on the forum once running into a problem with their bike because their logs were full ... :/ not sure if I should just clear them or not. All the records seem new though so idk if it is just overwriting itself or not.

MBB Version number

*************************************************************
*                                                           *
*                  Zero Motorcycles MBB                     *
*                                                           *
*                 Board Name : MBB PCB ASSY MOD 13MY IMPL   *
*                   Board PN : 41-05027                     *
*                  Board Rev : 01                           *
*              Firmware Name : FIRMWARE MBB S MON 13MY IMPL *
*                Firmware PN : 75-05028                     *
*               Firmware Rev : 65                           *
*                      Built : Jan  7 2014 10:08:20         *
*************************************************************

Relevant stats

- Max Battery Temp          :  48 C
  - Max Motor Temp            :  73 C
  - Max Controller Temp       :  49 C

- Pack Temps                :    35C   35C   36C   36C   35C   36C   36C   36C
  - Fet Temps                 :  -100C -100C
  - Highest Present Fet Temp  :  -100 C
  - Highest Present Pack Temp :  36 C
  - Lowest Present Pack Temp  :  35 C
  - Max Pack Temp This Ride   :  37 C
  - Min Pack Temp This Ride   :  35 C
  - Max FET Temp This Ride    :  -127 C
  - Min FET Temp This Ride    :  127 C
  - Age of BMS Temp Data      :  247 ms

[Burton]

Just sent this to zero with new set of logs and some terminal outputs. I have a feeling they will just say "take it to a dealer" and frankly I don't trust my dealer with a tire change let alone an electric bike. I don't care if they are a reseller or not. And I really don't want my bike to be "at the dealer" for half a year as I have seen story after story here.

I think I am going to remove all modifications, return the bike to stock, and see if it still has issues. This will help me isolate if the issues are with the clutch lever "foot brake" I have added or not. If it doesn't I am going to be sad as it takes a little time to put back on and configure again. But it will give me a chance to really go over the birds nest and make sure nothing is exposed and maybe "insulate" the frame in the nest area ... idk yet.

In other news I have to replace bearings again ... I think. Won't really know till I change my rear tire and rotate front pulley but it is making the good ole knocking noise again. The parts are not expensive but I am debating just dropping a 2016 SR motor in there instead.

For those interested about the mentioned terminal outputs see attached. (nothing too exciting though)

What is the issue you are experiencing? And when did it occur (a specific time and date helps)?
Today, around 7am EST
Started bike, backed it up out of drive way, drove off to first stop @ 15mph, to second stop @ 15mph, to stop before freeway @15mph.
Waited for traffic then (in SPORT mode) accelerated to about 45 and the bike lost throttle control about 100 yards down road.
Pulled over, 4 : 1 flash pattern. Turned bike off and restarted bike.
Drove 20' and the bike lost throttle again.  4 : 1 flash pattern
Stopped, restarted bike, put bike in ECO mode (having had success with it the last time this happened on the highway), got up to around 25 / 35mph and turned onto my secondary entrance road and bike lost throttle around turn.
Stopped 4 : 1 flashing pattern. Turned bike off and restarted. No throttle control 2: 1 flashing pattern. Figured I restarted too fast since that is a contactor error.
Stopped bike, waited a second and restarted.
Drove bike about a mile home from there @ 25mph
Parked bike, put up on stand 10 minutes or so later, tried to cause the fault in the garage by spinning the back wheel. No fault occurred.
Took logs at this time.


Is it a Charging issue or is it a Riding issue?
Riding Bike was 100% charged

If it is a Riding issue:
 Where you on the highway, city streets or off road?
City

Approximately, how fast were you going?
First time about 45mph
Second maybe 10?
Third about 25/35mph

What was the weather like when the issue occurred? Wet or dry? Hot or cold?
53 degrees F
dry

Is the dash lighting up when the motorcycle is keyed on? Are any of the lights flashing on the dash? If so, please describe the particular sequence?
Four blinks, pause, one blink of alert light. Board temperature sensor out of range.
Two blinks, pause, one blink of alert light on one restart. Contactor welded error.


Other notes:
See attached putty log I pulled after bike showed no errors on stand in garage for extra information.
Feel free to ask any questions. There is already a post about the first series of events up on the FB owners group and in the electric motorcycle forum.

[JasonS]

Ug.  I feel for you.  And sympathize with your comment about not wanting to leave it at the dealer (mine's starting it's third week for this trip to Austin).

You have a lot of contactor welded errors that you didn't mention - are those normal for you? (I.e., is that why you didn't mention them?)

It doesn't seem likely that would have anything to do with the throttle problem, but who knows...  I tell ya what, for such "simple, low maintenance" devices, they sure have a lot of opaque failure modes.

[JasonS]

Oh, and the bearings.  If you're right about them going bad again... What the heck?!?!?!

[Burton]

You have a lot of contactor welded errors that you didn't mention - are those normal for you? (I.e., is that why you didn't mention them?)

I thought this was part of the startup sequence but it doesn't appear to be so based on some legacy logs I have from winter. When I got the errors I did restart the bike rather fast (since there are speeding multi-ton vehicles all around me). Sequence from running, to where bike  is restarted, to running again. Note the 0 rpm before the contactor fault leading me to think it was part of restart sequence.

That said it did throw a weld error once on restart (2 1 blink sequence) but I figured I just restarted too fast.

00423     08/24/2015 09:56:16   Riding                     PackTemp: h 38C, l 37C, PackSOC: 98%, Vpack:115.901V, MotAmps:   0, BattAmps:   1, Mods: 10, MotTemp:  39C, CtrlTemp:  33C, MotRPM:   0
 00424     08/24/2015 09:56:52   SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame      Error Code: 0x1000, Error Reg: 0x01, Sevcon Error Code: 0x5182, Data: 01 02 00, Unknown
 00425     08/24/2015 09:57:11   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive OFF
 00426     08/24/2015 09:57:11   DEBUG: Sevcon Has Turned Off Contactor Drive
 00427     08/24/2015 09:57:11   Module 00 Disconnecting HP  modvolt: 115.886V
 00428     08/24/2015 09:57:11   Module 01 Disconnecting HP  modvolt:   0.000V
 00429     08/24/2015 09:57:11   Contactor Welded
 00430     08/24/2015 09:57:11   INFO:  Disabling Charger 1
 00431     08/24/2015 09:57:11   INFO:  Disabling Charger 2
 00432     08/24/2015 09:57:11   Module 00 Disconnecting HP  modvolt: 115.887V
 00433     08/24/2015 09:57:11   Module 01 Disconnecting HP  modvolt:   0.000V
 00434     08/24/2015 09:57:11   Module 00 Contactor is now Open
 00435     08/24/2015 09:57:12   DEBUG: Module 00 FETs are now Open
 00436                       0   DEBUG: Reset: Power-On, External
00437                       0   Power On                   Key Switch
 00438                       0   Key On
 00439                       0   Module 00 Disconnecting HP  modvolt:   0.000V
 00440                       0   Module 01 Disconnecting HP  modvolt:   0.000V
 00441                       0   CAN0 ACK error
 00442                       0   Module 00 CAN Link Up
 00443                       0   Module 00 Registered       modvolt: 115.897V
 00444     08/24/2015 09:57:17   DEBUG: Module scheme changed from None mode to Running mode
 00445     08/24/2015 09:57:18   Sevcon Turned On
 00446     08/24/2015 09:57:19   Sevcon CAN Link Up
 00447     08/24/2015 09:57:19   SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame      Error Code: 0x1000, Error Reg: 0x01, Sevcon Error Code: 0x4981, Data: 00 00 00, Throttle Fault
 00448     08/24/2015 09:57:20   DEBUG: Sevcon Contactor Drive ON.
 00449     08/24/2015 09:57:20   Module 00 Connecting HP    modvolt: 115.896V, maxsys: 115.911V, minsys: 115.911V, diff: 0.000V
 00450     08/24/2015 09:57:20   DEBUG: Module 00 FETs are now Closed
 00451     08/24/2015 09:57:20   Module 00 Contactor is now Closed
 00452     08/24/2015 09:57:20   INFO:  Enabling Charger 1
 00453     08/24/2015 09:57:20   INFO:  Enabling Charger 2
 00454     08/24/2015 09:57:20   Contactor took 382 ms to close
 00455     08/24/2015 09:57:20   
C:104812 B:115250
C:104812 B:115250
C:104750 B:115250
C:104750 B:115250
C:104750 B:115250
C:104687 B:115312
C:104687 B:115312
C:104625 B:115062
C:115812 B:115062
C:115812 B:115062
 00456     08/24/2015 09:57:20   SEVCON CAN EMCY Frame      Error Code: 0x0000, Error Reg: 0x00, Sevcon Error Code: 0x4981, Data: 00 00 3E, Throttle Fault
00457     08/24/2015 09:57:26   Riding                     PackTemp: h 38C, l 37C, PackSOC: 98%, Vpack:115.891V, MotAmps:   0, BattAmps:   2, Mods: 10, MotTemp:  39C, CtrlTemp:  33C, MotRPM:   0

It doesn't seem likely that would have anything to do with the throttle problem, but who knows...  I tell ya what, for such "simple, low maintenance" devices, they sure have a lot of opaque failure modes.

The question is what percentage of issues are user caused, which are factory caused, which are hardware failures, and which are caused by modifications. I don't know how many people actually have issues with these bikes as our sample size isn't reflective of all owners. A local dealer would know better I would imagine based on what they have sitting around in their shop.

The issue I have is I am a fairly mechanical person who did all of their own maintenance on their ICE bike and someone who use to build electrical laboratory equipment which included 220vdc devices. Even with all that there isn't much I can do to deduce the problem with these bikes. There is no public data or wiki to turn to if something is wrong outside of the few people I know who race these bikes, and many of them are busy racing

Before I bought my first ICE bike I spend months researching the bike I was going to get so I knew how to work on it, what issues to look for, etc. Got the bike home, stripped it to the frame, cleaned it, put it back together to specs and it ran great. If there was an issue I could fix it in less than a day if I had the parts on hand. First thing I did when I got my Zero home was pull the wire loom apart, label all connectors, and make a wire diagram since one didn't exist and I had no clue what anything was. Thankfully several people in the community were willing to answer a lot of my questions but even with that I still have to rely on incomplete data.

As of now I use the MOM for the error code sequences, I use my wire diagram + the knowledge I gained from past projects, I use the Sevcon Gen 4 manual for pinout information, and I use knowledge told to me and gained with DVT.

I love learning about these bikes but I would really like to be at a point where I could figure out what is wrong without a dealer. I rode my friends ninja 250 into work today, as he lent it to me while I fix my bike, and I instantly knew after riding it some problems he needs to fix. I can't do that on my Zero outside of knowing what encoder issues "feel" like and how to temporarily reset them (and that knowledge was told to me as well after the fact).

[JasonS]

Right - it sounds like we have a similar comfort levels with the technologies involved.  I do as much of the work on my own vehicles as is practical from a time standpoint (i.e., not all, but I could)

What's different between us is I haven't modified my bike (Zero) at all.  Well, I added a Fiam horn, because the stock one was too feeble after the dual Fiam setup on my BMW, especially since the Zero is in permanent 'whisper mode'.  And yet there are still a string of intermittent failures in my 8-9 months of ownership, and I'm coming up SIX WEEKS that my bike has been at the dealer, of that 8-9 months.  Most of that time was waiting on Zero to get back to the dealer, or for parts to ship, but still...  Ridiculous. Fortunately, Zero was willing to ship the instrument cluster in advance of me bringing the bike in, or that might be closer to 8 weeks (I was in and out in a matter of hours for that warranty repair!).

I haven't heard any updates on your body work process since my latest addition was born.  Has anything happened on that front?  (I totally get why it would be stalled at the moment, but did I miss anything a month or so ago?)

[Burton]

I haven't heard any updates on your body work process since my latest addition was born.  Has anything happened on that front?  (I totally get why it would be stalled at the moment, but did I miss anything a month or so ago?)

I have had to stall process to focus on other projects which have a hard deadline in October. Once that is done I will restart getting the front on before winter comes (assuming I can even ride the bike more than 100' at that point) :/

Oh, and the bearings.  If you're right about them going bad again... What the heck?!?!?!

The Original Owner used this bike as a race bike. It was modified to be one of the first 2013 SR's and one of the mods included ceramic bearings. Now it makes sense given the limited miles on the bike were mostly race miles (about 600) but ceramic bearings don't make sense long term given how fragile they are. So I swapped them for steal ones very close to stock and the problem returned.

But I don't know the cause yet. And I wont till I drop the motor and take it apart to see what is going on and hope it is nothing major.

[Burton]

Wonder if simply replacing the contactor would "fix" this problem :/

http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=2976.msg16621#msg16621

Will email some contacts to see what I can do to test the contactor safely.

[JasonS]

Could be a worthwhile thought.  Reminds me of a another thought I've had. 

It seems to me, that of the electrical problems these bikes have, a large number are related to the contactors.  Why aren't they using solid state contactors?  I know they're pricey, but warranty claims are pricey, too.  Maybe there simply aren't any at non-stratospheric price points and appropriate form factors that can handle ... what, 500 - 660 amps ?  My controller is rated at 660 amps, but 50kw is ~ 500A at 100v... 

What kind of testing do you have in mind? 

[Burton]

Typically you would check the resistance or impedance of the the low voltage coil and the leg(s). Then look for either high, low, drifting readings, or non measurable. But you need to know the range which is considered good.

[Burton]

Took every connector / box / etc off the bike paying special attention to label newer additions for the RFID ignition circuit and Transducer circuits.

Going to reconnect it all tomorrow and take it for a most likely short spin. If it fails again I am going to have to set up a time for the dealer to update the MBB / BMS to current versions (as Harlan pointed out to me) to make sure it isn't as simple as that.

Harlan indicated he doesn't think it is a contactor problem from the data / descriptions I have provided so far. That is both good and bad news of course. Knowing the problem is 90% of the information required to fix a problem.

Updates to come most likely tomorrow.

[JasonS]

Cool - I always like updates  

Of course, they don't always make things better.

And I don't think either of us have much expectation of it fixing a problem that is brand new when the version you're running has [presumably] remained unchanged for some time.

Damn opaque failure modes...

I kinda hope buttoning everything up again makes the problem go away for ya, but then you're stuck wondering what the problem was.  And when it will be back.

It would be good to see the full log, not just the error frames.  I didn't quite understand your original comment about attempts crashing the terminal... You mean PuTTY? Or the connection?  I've only pulled my logs once or twice via usb, and it times out before finishing, but still I end up with a fair bit of data before it times out.

I never really completed my efforts on decoding the Bluetooth *.bin files (because I made the USB cable instead), but I did make some progress.  If you never got the decoded logs back from your contact, you can send them to me and I'll run them through my script and send the results back - they won't be perfect, but the script does handle a fair bit correctly.