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[Richard230]

According to this article, altering the computer programming on any vehicle might soon be illegal in the U.S.

https://rideapart.com/articles/will-u-s-copyright-office-decision-short-circuit-altering-bikes-software

[Doug S]

In California, it's illegal to modify the exhaust system on your bike to make it louder than stock.

It hasn't stopped a single person, and I'd be surprised if a single ticket has been issued for violation.

[frodus]

Don't ask, Don't tell.

I may or may not have modified the programming of the Sevcon in my Brammo. It may have just come to me that way.....

[Richard230]

All very true.  Individual enforcement will likely be tough to do, so manufacturers of equipment that modify or permit the modification of computer programming might be targeted by vehicle manufacturers (or government regulators) if they think it is worth their effort to do so. This court trial should prove interesting.

[frodus]

If they enact it, I'll rip the f*cking ECU out and re-wire it myself! I'm EE enough to get it runing without the ECU and BMS.

[steven_first]

If they enact it, I'll rip the f*cking ECU out and re-wire it myself! I'm EE enough to get it runing without the ECU and BMS.

I would like to see that setup; no ECU, DC, batteries and an AC motor...  Not saying it isn't doable but that would be some setup!

[Justin Andrews]

If they enact it, I'll rip the f*cking ECU out and re-wire it myself! I'm EE enough to get it runing without the ECU and BMS.

I would argue that this stupid proposed law would cover the Sevcon as well, which is as much (if not more so) of an ECU, as the MBB is.

[frodus]

If they enact it, I'll rip the f*cking ECU out and re-wire it myself! I'm EE enough to get it runing without the ECU and BMS.

I would like to see that setup; no ECU, DC, batteries and an AC motor...  Not saying it isn't doable but that would be some setup!

The Motor controller/Inverter converts the DC to AC, and can be run without the ECU.

[steven_first]

If they enact it, I'll rip the f*cking ECU out and re-wire it myself! I'm EE enough to get it runing without the ECU and BMS.

I would like to see that setup; no ECU, DC, batteries and an AC motor...  Not saying it isn't doable but that would be some setup!

The Motor controller/Inverter converts the DC to AC, and can be run without the ECU.

So we are talking about the ECU (MBB) only and not the  ESC (electronic speed control).  Wouldn't the Sevcon be "illegal" to modify as well or does that vary enough to be exempt for m potential laws?

With loud exhausts and emissions issues it makes sense to make it  illegal to modify that part of a car but with this stuff it is obviously just a way for manufactures to protect their systems.  If a manufacture makes 2 models of a car, one with 200 hp and one with 300 hp and the only difference is software then are you stealing if you up your 200 hp to 300 hp yourself? 

[frodus]

If they enact it, I'll rip the f*cking ECU out and re-wire it myself! I'm EE enough to get it runing without the ECU and BMS.

I would like to see that setup; no ECU, DC, batteries and an AC motor...  Not saying it isn't doable but that would be some setup!

The Motor controller/Inverter converts the DC to AC, and can be run without the ECU.

So we are talking about the ECU (MBB) only and not the  ESC (electronic speed control).  Wouldn't the Sevcon be "illegal" to modify as well or does that vary enough to be exempt for m potential laws?

With loud exhausts and emissions issues it makes sense to make it  illegal to modify that part of a car but with this stuff it is obviously just a way for manufactures to protect their systems.  If a manufacture makes 2 models of a car, one with 200 hp and one with 300 hp and the only difference is software then are you stealing if you up your 200 hp to 300 hp yourself?

I don't know what Zero and Brammo call their parts, but I'm using terms the industry uses for the various parts. BMS (Battery Management System), ECU (electronic control unit, or VCU, vehicle control unit), Charger, Motor controller (or inverter), Contactor.

We're not modifying firmware or software, that's where all of this is getting confused. The only thing we'd be changing are parameters in the controller.

In a Gas engine, that can effect emissions, but in an Electric, there are no Emissions, so why would it be regulated? All my settings do is use more energy, which would be the same as if I went 70+, who's there to regulate me?


The issue with the article, is that people were copying software. There's no copyright here. I'm changing parameters that are left open to change via software. If they didn't want them to change, they should have locked the controller.

[Justin Andrews]

Changing parameters in the Sevcon could well be illegal under the coming clarifications, as it classifies as modifying the parameters of the software on the bike in a way the manufacturer did not intend. The clause they are getting you under is not modifing the parameters, rather that you are accessing the system in a way they did not intend, thus you are guilty of circumventing the software protections (so say knowing the password to the MBB is illegal, or using an IXATT that zero did not sell you would be illegal) Its VERY daft, which is why the EFF are seeking the clarification and challenging the interpretation. 

It leaves people in a really weird situation too, using the app would be legal, but attaching a computer to the CANBUS and doing the EXACT same operation via the interface would not be legal (or certainly quasi-legal) as these actions are password locked on the MBB. Altering the Sevcon would be right out of the question, as the manufacturer (Zero) offers users no way to access the Sevcon (as they don't sell the programmer to the public, and under the DCMA purchasing one from a third party is considered circumvention thus a breach of the DMCA.)

Of course it also comes down to the manufacturers enforcing any clarification under the DMCA that would come to pass, some are pretty keen on clamping down on reprogramming, others maybe not so much.

[steven_first]

I guess a question would be if they can enforce a law like this retroactively or if this would be on new sales only once the law is passed.  I would hope that it would be hard to enforce any kind of law on anyone that purchased a EV before such a law was passed on the grounds that they were not told, warned, or asked to comply with any kind of "no modifications" disclosure.  I think anyone interested in being free to set up your vehicle as you see fit should follow and actively participate in this.  That being said, I don't think any officers are going to be coming to your house any time soon for reports of a modified electric motorcycle. 

[Justin Andrews]

Bear in mind this is NOT new legislation, its a clarification of a law implemented in 1999, so Manufacturers can back date it to 1999 with the implementation of the DMCA.

I strongly doubt Zero would enforce this however, they have historically given support to people such as Terry and Harlan who are making third party mods.

[steven_first]

It's true.  Even if this kind of thing does end up happening I don't really see Zero being too uptight about it.   

[CrashCash]

In California, it's illegal to modify the exhaust system on your bike to make it louder than stock.

It hasn't stopped a single person, and I'd be surprised if a single ticket has been issued for violation.

It's illegal to modify the exhaust in any state, because it's a Federal (EPA) regulation, but it's only California that gives a crap.

I had a friend that got such a ticket because the cop couldn't prove the noise violation, but he could prove it was a modified exhaust.

Also, Cobra (exhausts) and Power Commander (ECU/FI tuners) have both been nailed for big fines by California for the "for off-road use only" disclaimer being so obviously wink-wink nudge-nudge. This was in the AMA membership rag a while back.

This'll be a hammer that individual companies can use as opposed to mostly governmental agencies.

I think most of the bike manufacturers are cool about this sort of thing, but I can see car manufacturers loving this sort of thing. They'd love it to be an end-run around Magnuson–Moss and lock you into "service by the dealership ONLY" again.