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Total Members Voted: 24

[Ndm]

 :oOk I'm confused, how come tony Williams can build a chademo compatible adapter and zero can't ? Seems like many minds on the job (looking at you zero!)should be capable as opposed to just one guy

[Erasmo]

Great news! I'm still a bit on the fence about waiting for what the 2016 model has to offer but for current owners this is really good.

:oOk I'm confused, how come tony Williams can build a chademo compatible adapter and zero can't ? Seems like many minds on the job (looking at you zero!)should be capable as opposed to just one guy

Zero has a perfectly fine adapter lying on their shelves, they're just not selling it right now for some obscure reasons.

[Burton]

Zero has a perfectly fine adapter lying on their shelves, they're just not selling it right now for some obscure reasons.

It isn't an obscure reason. It is largely because the CHAdeMO standard isn't being followed by all manufactures / networks and thus won't work with low voltage bikes.

Many of these have a "low voltage" setting starting at 200 or 300 vDC and our bikes need to dip down to the set fourth in the CHAdeMO standard, 50 vDC .

See the response above : http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4593.msg30398;topicseen#msg30398

:oOk I'm confused, how come tony Williams can build a chademo compatible adapter and zero can't ? Seems like many minds on the job (looking at you zero!)should be capable as opposed to just one guy

I am also confused how our bikes would be able to work with chargers that start at 200vDC. I know there are some chargers you can run on DC and AC and you could spoof the voltage of the bike but that would just charge from the chargers, not the way we want through CHAdeMO. That said he has said he can do it.

[ultrarnr]

Burton,

The Blink networked CHAdeMO systems are the only ones that start at 200 volts.

Below is an except from an email my dealer received last August from Zero:
In general, we have not been able to provide an official compatibility list because there is no central testing location or methodology offered by the CHAdeMO group to ensure it.  We have found incompatibilities with stations that we believe have not fully implemented the CHAdeMO specification.  Usually, these related to a lack of support for voltages around 100v, which our motorcycles require, or Isolation Tests.  And a specific brand of station can differ by model or even firmware revision.  From our testing, we generally feel good about ABB, Fuji and Nissan stations, but Blink typically doesn't support the lower voltages.  AeroVironment may be working on a firmware improvement that will help, but they have not announced a release date.

Bottom line is there are several brands of CHAdeMO systems that will work with the Zero. Look on Plugshare at the CHAdeMO systems around you and then decide.

[Erasmo]

Zero has a perfectly fine adapter lying on their shelves, they're just not selling it right now for some obscure reasons.

It isn't an obscure reason. It is largely because the CHAdeMO standard isn't being followed by all manufactures / networks and thus won't work with low voltage bikes.

Many of these have a "low voltage" setting starting at 200 or 300 vDC and our bikes need to dip down to the set fourth in the CHAdeMO standard, 50 vDC .

See the response above : http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/boards/index.php?topic=4593.msg30398;topicseen#msg30398

I know that two out of the five mayor charger brands have screwed up with implementing the lower voltages, but that doesn't have to spoil the party for everybody. For example, most of the chargers in the Netherlands are from ABB and should work with no problem.

[ultrarnr]

Using CHAdeMO on a Zero is going to be just like using L2 in that you have to know the model of charger you are going to connect to in order to know if it will work with your Zero. If you want to use your L2 you have to avoid GE Wattstations and PEP since they will not work. If you are going to use CHAdeMO you avoid Blink systems and be careful with Aerovironment systems. The bigger risk is that the system regardless of brand or level of charger is that it may already be in use or simply doesn't work.

[Doug S]

I spoke with Tony last night, and asked that very question...how is he planning on making our bikes compatible with all the stations? His answer was that 1) he wasn't sure yet, and 2) one obvious solution is to reconfigure the battery pack to BE a higher-voltage pack while charging. In other words, instead of putting the four bricks on an S/SR in parallel, rearrange them in a 2P2S configuration, and charge at 200V.

That frightens me more than a little bit; it sounds like fairly major surgery and I'm not sure I want to do it to my bike, which is doing and always has done 95% of everything I could want it to do. You'd need some extremely high-current switching devices (they would need to be able to handle 100A while charging and 660A while running, for the SR), and several of them, to reconfigure the battery pack for charging.

There probably are other solutions, but this EE can't think of any offhand. For a while I was thinking of using a power supply whose input is compatible with AC or DC, but that's not going to work because the CHAdeMO station needs to see battery voltage present before it will start providing current....no real way to do that with a power supply as "load" (other than rigging up a small battery to trick the charger into starting, or something like that).

If Tony manages to come up with a satisfying and elegant solution, he's a better engineer than I.

[Richard230]

I don't really know anything about the subject, but could you install a step-down transformer on the Zero, which would connect to the CHaDeMo and ask for 200V, while then stepping down that voltage to 100V (or whatever is needed) so that the Zero battery pack could be charged?

[firepower]

Transformers dont work with DC, and they are big and bulky at voltages and currents involved. Using a DC to DC converter is a basically same as AC to DC charger same electronics and size. ChaDeMo is designed to go directly to battery so no on bike charging electronics is needed for high speed charging,  a very elegant and simple solution. Tesla Fast Chargers are similar Technology. Zero really needs to solve this. ChaDeMo was a great product. they should have stayed with it and just listed the ones not compliant and force ChaDeMo standard to revoke their licence to those manufacturers not fully compatible. All the Japanese EV car manufacturers are compatible.
 

[Burton]

Burton,
The Blink networked CHAdeMO systems are the only ones that start at 200 volts.

So I was partially right, I did link back to your original post with the full text just incase I messed something up


In 150mile radius circle around my house there are 51 CHAdeMO chargers and no BLINK or AeroVironment systems to speak of.

• 14 free chargers (mostly Nissan dealers, not sure if they would like a non-Nissan vehicle using the charger during business hours)
• 1 non-networked "pay" charger
• 5 EVgo free chargers
• 23 EVgo paid chargers (didn't look at fees)
• 4 Greenlots free chargers
• 4 Greenlots paid chargers

I looked at the NRG EVgo page to see if it was like Chargepoint in you pay for a card and  you are charged based on the settings at the charger. If the charger is free then you simply swipe the card and not charge is applied. I am not sure if it works this way with EVgo as their "flex" option, requiring no monthly recurring fee, states DC charging is $4.95 / session + 20¢ min.

It seems some of the EVgo stations don't require a card according to users on plugshare and are indeed free.
There are also two levels of plans at EVgo, one is network wide and the other (fee mentioned above) is only for the "freedom stations" of which 13 exist in my area and the rest are outside the "freedom stations" network. I am not sure if these would be charged at the rate above or the "free" rate if indicated.

The Greenlots looks like it is similar to Chargepoint in execution.

Why does this have to be so difficult >_< I did manage to find this but I am still left with many questions.
http://www.plugincars.com/ultimate-guide-electric-car-charging-networks-126530.html

[Doug S]

Why does this have to be so difficult >_<

A lot of us are asking that exact question. The whole point of a "standard" is to get everybody doing whatever they're doing the same way, so everybody's product is compatible with everyone else's. CHAdeMO sounds great, it seems like it would cover almost all the bases (though I might quibble its 125A current limit should be higher for some vehicles with large battery packs), but some of the players aren't adhering to it. In what way does that qualify as a standard?

Look at WiFi for instance. How annoying would it be if every single computer manufacturer, every smartphone mfr, and every router mfr were doing their own thing? The only reason WiFi works is because everybody does it the same way....yes, there are flavors of WiFi, but everybody who claims 802.11(b) compliance is, in fact, compliant with that portion of the standard, and will work with any other 802.11(b) device. The reason it works is because there's a WiFi SIG (Special Interest Group, usually a consortium of manufacturers) that holds and protects the "WiFi" standard, and certifies products as compliant only after testing them to be sure they are compliant. Products that don't submit for testing and pass the tests aren't allowed to use the "WiFi" brand or say or imply compliance with the 802.11 standard. The WiFi SIG is a subset of IEEE, the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, one of the largest professional societies around.

I don't know about CHAdeMO, but it really doesn't sound like there's a SIG backing the "standard", or if there is, they aren't doing their job. It seems like it's sorely needed, since clearly there is no enforcement, and therefore no real standard. As EV owners, I think we should petition the IEEE to get off their butts and start doing their job for us. If there is no SIG, they need to create one, and if there is a SIG, they need to start busting some chops and enforcing compliance. Alternatively, if CHAdeMO is too much of a mess to salvage, create a true standard that makes sense and will help push forward the process of EV adoption by the general public.

[Doug S]

Oh, of course I neglected to mention the whole J1772 family, which I suppose you could say is the SAE's (Society of Automotive Engineers) answer to the EV society's needs. Pretty pathetic so far, though, almost entirely focusing on AC solutions which don't move the big, heavy, hot charger off the vehicle. There are flavors that use DC, but I don't know how "official" they are as far as being true standards.

More than anything I'm jealous of Tesla's DC connector. The CHAdeMO connector is rated for 125A, most J1772 connectors are rated well below 100A, and Tesla can deliver 135kW through their connector, which at their battery voltage of 410V calculates out to 329A, with a smaller connector than CHAdeMO or J1772. How they do it, I dunno, except to point out that Elon Musk was involved in the design.

[benswing]

FYI, here is what Tony Williams of QuickChargePower.com wrote on the Electric Motorcycler's Facebook page regarding charging at different voltages:

"We will reconfigure the battery to be in a "charging state" for a higher voltage. We will have to use smaller relays. Crack all the CAN messages. Learn all the limits of the battery... etc, ad nauseum.

So, again, if $2500 is too much, then it's not for you. I absolutely guarantee that our solution will work with "normal" CHAdeMO stations, and be fully vetted and tested."

His company has put together CHAdeMO chargers for the electric RAV4, which gives me confidence that he understands the stations and what is involved in putting one together that works.

[DynoMutt]

My only question is
Is the $2500 price inclusive of installation, warranty, and support?

[KrazyEd]

FAST Charging would be great. Not sure where Burton resides, but, in Las Vegas
with 2 million residents, and, Over 41 Million visitors last year, we have a total
of ONE CHAdeMO charger ( according to PLugShare ). The next closest one is
in San Bernardino. A SuperCharger or two, and, a TON of FREE J1772 chargers.
I know that DC Charging is the future, and, it would be nice to futurepoof the
bikes now, but, not very realistic. It looks like for the foreseeable future, J1772 is
the best option. They are mostly capable of 6KW~7KW, For most of us, continual
cross country riding isn't a major point. The OCCASIONAL long distance ride
would be nice. More likely to find a J1772 charger in remote area than a DC
Fast charger. A pair of 2.5KW~3.5Kw chargers would be the most balanced,
but, a nice 6~7 Kw might be more cost effective.