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[Doug S]

Ted, let me be very clear here...I don't give a bloody damn how you behave, and never will. I've never met you, never interacted with you, and if I ever do, it will mean less than nothing to me. YOU'RE the one that should care. You once said to me (and I quote) "lol I missed the part about you using a hose on it.  You're kidding right?" No, I'm not kidding, I washed my bike the same way millions of people wash millions of bikes. How and why does that deserve ridicule?

Oh this thread, you said yourself, to one of the most respected members of this forum, "You're gonna think I'm a total jerk, but that was one of the most painful things I've watched on Youtube." If you knew saying that was going to make people have that sort of reaction, why did you let it out of your yap? In fact, worse than that, you TYPED it! You had every opportunity to think better of it, you knew exactly how it would go over, and you did it anyhow. There are other forum members from Boston, and they don't talk that way to other members. Why do you? By deliberately talking to people that way, it seems like you must WANT people to think you're a jerk!

Don't you want people to read your blog? Don't you want people to not skip right over your comments on this board? Your behavior certainly doesn't show it.

Again, there's no need to defend yourself to me. I'm not going to read anything you write anyhow. But for your own sake, think before you write, and if you wouldn't want someone talking to you the same way you're about to talk to them, DON'T DO IT!

[Burton]

I need to preface this by saying I am not responding with emotion but it could be easily read into the following post. This is not an attack on anyone it is a reflection of what is being discussed and perceived. I understand how Ted felt when watching my videos. "Use the right tools for the job," is a moto I often say to myself and about once a week I say to myself thinking "you are doing it wrong ... but why," when consuming someone's content online.


Onto the topic at hand
The video in question has never been publicly listed on youtube. It was original posted on FB as an update on MY progress with diagnosing the motor problem I had been talking about on their (found here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/zmcowners/permalink/823263171076226/ ) None of my videos I have likely ever produced are purely instructional. All of them are about me, my journey, and my process. I use a lot of sentences starting with "I" not "You" as I am no where near an authority on anything.


Side rant about my videos on youtube skip to next bold title if you wish
"I had to do it this way ... I found this hard ... I found it easier to do this way ... I made a mistake," these are very common in all of the videos I produce even when trying to show someone how to do something. My videos are personal, not mechanical; they are about me.

I don't make videos for other people, I make them for myself. I am very selfish in this regard but it frees me from being perfect and worrying about likes, views, and ratings. If you found my videos informative great, if not I don't care less you have something to add which is constructive. This is how I have always strived to be when it comes to my videos.

Several times I have found myself go back and watch my own videos as they were a way for me to externalize my knowledge at the time so I could reflect on it later when doing the same task.

All I am doing is sharing with others who for some reason or another find what I do interesting or entertaining. But it has never been my goal to please anyone who would consume the content I produce because it isn't for them, it is for me.


Back on topic of the FB post which started this journey for me
On this tread I had indicated I had problems with the motor and was seeking guidance for how to remove it.

After gaining enough information where I thought I could do what I needed to do I set off to removing the motor. It took me hours because I had not been given all the variables to be able to take it off in a half an hour; something I feel I could do now. I did not stop and take notes on how to do it in the future instead I shared a video with those tracking my progress so I could reference it later. I externalized my knowledge gained up to that point for me and others who wish to follow my journey.

I had made this horrible video for those who were following my post, found here: , and it currently has 18 views. 18 people from the owners group were interested in this topic watched the video to date and it to has never been publicly listed on youtube. I made an offhand promise I would try to produce one later which was better quality and when I do it will be about how I did it, not how you should do it.

As of right now the zero motor video has 171 views. Granted the video was also posted here for those who wish to see informing them I had originally only posted this on the FB Zero Owners Group page and thought I would share it here.

Taking my motor apart to figure out why there is play in the shaft causing the sprocket to wobble a little.
First time doing this with limited guidance so be patient with me

This is what is found in the bodies description for the video. The original title read "Taking zero motor apart for diagnosis and repair" not "HOW TO take YOUR zero motor apart for diagnosis and repair." Later this description was changed after Ted posted in horror at what I had done to the current title.

11 views came from facebook directly and 28 from EMF, 82 came from unknown embedded players. I can't say how many views this would have had if it was never picked up for critique.


last side note about me ... because it is all about me
I am all for critique ... if I am doing something wrong or making a false claim I want to know. When I talk to people about important issues I make sure to have sources I can give them. "Know why you believe what you believe" is something I live by. Show me your sources so I might read them.

If you are someone who I respect because you live by similar principles I want to know why you hold a position on something I don't. I want to read your sources, understand your arguments, and further redefine my understanding of the topic so I can speak with what limited authority I have.

Those who know me think I am the smartest person they know. But I know I am just someone who values research and the more I know the more I realize I don't know. To me this is normal, to others it appears abnormal.

My same love for research extends into my other passions. Several months before buying my ninja 250 all I did was read service manuals and the wiki how to so when I got my bike I would be better prepared to work on it. When I got the bike home I stripped it down, cleaned it, tuned it, and put it back together again. Previous to this I had changed the oil on my car once.

I hunger for knowledge and if I want to learn something, or do something, I find a way to do it. This has always been a driving force in my life, in many ways it defines who I am as a person.

When I got my zero I knew nothing about how the bike worked and fumbled over many key functions in my earlier videos about the bike. But I was hungry for knowledge and I continue to hunger. This lead me to making my own wire diagram for the bike, something people normally have to sign an NDA with Zero to get for my own reference. Yes I shared it with the community but I did not just share a diagram I shared my story. I shared my difficulties, my concerns, my victors, and my process, and ultimately my triumph.

I didn't do this alone, nothing I have ever done was gained from working by myself. Without others there are no shoulders to stand on. That is another reason I share what I do, even when I mess up. And if I do something wrong I hope by exposing myself someone takes enough interest in what I am doing to reach a hand out and help me up so I can stand tall for those who wish to boost off my own shoulders. Because of this if someone is right, and I know they are right, I don't ignore them based off other perceptions I might have of them.

The videos I make are not about what they appear. To me they are about showing others "you can do something if you really want to do them," this is the essence of much of what I "produce" for people to consume. But ultimately they are just about me.

It brings me great joy to see someone wake up to this realization.

Sorry this was such a long read

[Bueller]

I'm not sure if it's relevant but, Here's my 2 cents anyway. I have spent a lot of years as a mechanic. I fully understand the "right tool for the job" thing. However, I also spent 7 years as an F-16 crew chief in the USAF. So, I am also familiar with the "do more with less" mentality. You should have seen the crappy tools we used to fix multi-million dollar fighter jets. It wasn't pretty. Still, neither me or my crew ever lost a jet. It is possible to make up for the lack of a proper tool by using some skill and patience. Of course there some things I would have done differently than in the video but, I have to admire the balls it took to tackle such a potentially expensive job. That was some impressive back yard mechanic work. Good job!

[kingcharles]

By the way, if you want to see how a video should be done, look no further than Ben Nelson's work with his Leaf/Vectrix pack.  He, too is doing this the first time, but he's showing perfect working habits and skills, and not taking (or showing) shortcuts. 
https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/04/28/how-to-work-on-stuff/

I noticed quite a few strange things in his videos! Saying that this is an example of doing it right is a mistake.

[NoiseBoy]

When Bostonians aren't speaking their mind are they allowed to have any fun?

I don't see the problem with any video that does anything wrong as long as they aren't insisting that everyone does the same. Everyone here has something useful to contribute. Let's not allow EMF to become "one of those motorcycle forums."

I like the fact everyone here is friendly and if someone posts anything wrong it always gets corrected by the next poster in short order.

Back on the subject at hand; ceramic bearings are de rigeur in cycling atm. I have them on my climbing wheels and compared to similar steel bearings they do freewheel longer when spun but I very much doubt they would make a significant difference to a mere mortal like me. Sorry for the pointless anecdote. My point is that if you wanted to learn about the benefits of ceramic bearings there are some very technical cycling websites that would be a good place to start.

[teddillard]

Yeah well, John (skadamo, the guy who runs the place) wouldn't let me quit.  Something about "bringing tons of good advice" and "experience".  So you're stuck with me.   

Thanks, by the way, for the advice, Doug S.  Funny, that sounds like it's about at 11 to me, but that's just my perspective. 

Since Burton fully explained his motives, let me do the same, briefly, for everyone but Doug who's not reading this anyway. 

I don't care if anyone reads my blog.  I've said from the very beginning, my blog is for me to keep track of the information I've found over the years.  I had no idea when I started it that it would last this long, but it has, so I keep it up and it's fun for me.  That said, I have a few hundred readers a day, the biggest traffic is on the tech advice and reference posts, and so I feel a vague responsibility to be accurate and consider that someone may just try what I'm suggesting.  That said, if the stuff isn't accurate, it's useless to me and presumably everybody else.  I also wrote a book (that I'm reckoning Doug won't read) that I killed myself to be as accurate an introduction as possible to building your own electric motorcycle, and I did that because, first, I didn't feel the books out there were particularly helpful or up to date, and second, to compile the information I had to make it easier to answer people's questions, like, "How do I get started building my own motorcycle?"  I can say, "...have you read my book?".

One small point, not to beat a dead horse.  Burton's video is not "private".  It's "unlisted".  Which means, when he posts it to Facebook and here, anybody can see it, link and embed it - even copy it for themselves.  So by posting it here and on Facebook it becomes searchable.  I feel there's a responsibility implied with that, as with my blog.

On my work in InsideEVs, we get over a million hits a month on that site, with readers who don't let you get away with anything, and editors who care.  Hell, I got called on improper use of an apostrophe.  So the work I do there has a more professional tone, naturally, and I stand behind 100%.  I like that people read my work, but the site pulls so much traffic by itself (it's now the 2nd biggest EV site on the web) that if people don't like my work, it's not a big deal. 

What is important to me is that people learning this stuff get accurate, good, and safe information.  Period. 

As far as how people "talk" to me? My skin's a lot thicker, apparently, than a lot of you folks.  I worked in advertising for 30 years.  You're not going to make me cry.  This "lol you're kidding, right?"  that apparently started this whole thing?  I can only respond, "lol, you're kidding, right?" 

And thinking before I write?  I'm a writer.  All I do is think before I write.  I revise everything constantly, including PMs and posts here, and go back and correct stuff to make sure it's accurate.  I'd suggest, after seeing some posts and the things some claim to be facts, others might be a little more careful to do the same.  I'm still astounded that someone who claims to be an EE would not know what dielectric grease is, or would post bad information about something so minor and easy to research that was just wrong.

I hope to god this thread can go back to the topic, but I've done everything I can to make it do so. It's up to you guys. 

[teddillard]

So, out of respect for John's hard work keeping this forum together, I went back and edited some of my more, eh, "colorful" language.  My original comments will remain intact on my blog.

His comment was, "You don't sugar coat stuff, that is for sure..." but went on to support my posts.  So I'm not sugar-coating anything for your benefit, but I took some of the, well, tabasco out, for those with a more delicate constitution.   

I'd be happy to delete my responses to my personal critics, if they're willing to delete or edit their off-topic posts to try to get this train wreck back on the tracks.   

...if not, well, it is what it is.  "All Aboard Amtrak!"

[Burton]

Well ... that didn't last too long.

! No longer available

Same noise / sensation / vibration returned! Except this time I am not going to let it get as bad as it did before.

Same problem as before, rotate the pulley under tension and it knocks. Take tension off and  push pulley and there is play in all directions

Dropped the motor and pulled the front plate off ... there does seem to be play in the bearing similar to the ceramics I removed. Now looking at the stock SKF 60062RS JEM's I replaced the ceramics with last time (as I have another set sitting around) there is very little play in the same direction BUT there is most definitely play ...

My first thought is this play wouldn't matter if the bearings are parallel to each other and perpendicular to the axel but I could be wrong ... With something that has this much force applied to it it shouldn't have play like this.

Now could I get by with putting in the same type bearings ? History would suggest for 1-3k miles before the noise / vibration returns ... and at what point is it dangerous to ride ? .... 

Sent Harlan a request for information on the bearings I should be using and inquired if he had any in stock ... OR if there is something else I should be testing for.

[Ndm]

Here is a decent  breakdown of the numbers used to identify bearings, I'm sure you've already seen this or some other manufacturers definitions but it doesn't hurt to have it for reference http://www.skf.com/binary/30-61889/TT08_006.pdf

[Burton]

Yup that works for a lot of bearings but the stock bearings are Japanese made NTN bearings of an unknown size and from what I can tell they use a completely different system to identify their bearings outside the number

For example a 6006 2SR in SKF could be a 6006LLU

[Burton]

Update on motor. I replaced the only bad bearing (pulley side) and "tested" it by moving the pulley in directions other than that which gravity pulls it and it still has the same play :/

Worse yet ... it has a rotational knocking and I know the bearings are flush as I measured their clearances when I pressed them in.

[rayivers]

Are you certain nothing's making contact inside the motor? because that's what it sounds like to me.  In one of the clips it also looked like the shaft was moving around inside the bearing I.D., but it could have been a video-artifact thing.

I realize it's expensive etc, but have you considered replacing the motor?  Seems like you've definitely gotten your money's worth out of that one.

Ray

[Burton]

  Seems like you've definitely gotten your money's worth out of that one.

How have I got my money's worth out of a motor with only 13k miles on it :/ I ride at least 13k miles a year ... I can't see spending 2000 a year to ride my bike < 13k miles :*(

I have priced "new" SR motors (since I have a size 6 controller) and they are 1500-2000 ... which is why I am trying to rectify my situation without spending money on a motor as I would much rather spend the money on faster chargers

Are you certain nothing's making contact inside the motor? because that's what it sounds like to me.  In one of the clips it also looked like the shaft was moving around inside the bearing I.D., but it could have been a video-artifact thing.

The first most recent clip showing the bearing play the plat is free and simply sitting on the axial / shaft. This was done to illustrate the amount of play now present in the bearing.

The second most recent clip (where the motor is completely back together with a new bearing) I am illustrating the axial play and a knocking noise on a specific point of rotation. The knock noise is the bearing.

I used a multi-meter to check for continuity between the pates in the motor and the axial / rotor and didn't find any grounding issues. I also don't see any wear patterns near the edges of the coil wound plates. I haven't tried to remove the entire rotor as I am not sure how to do this without damaging the motor.

That said ... no I don't know for sure there is contact being made but I suspect it isn't.


Let me know your thoughts given this clarification.

[Kocho]

Shouldn't a new bearing be smooth and with minimal play? You should be able to check this before you put it in the motor. If it is defective, it should make the same noises and wobble outside as it does installed. I'm not an expert on bearings, but that much play seems excessive to me. Isn't there a way to control the amount of play? By tightening some retaining nut or something? On rollerblades, which use similar type of bearings (just smaller), the amount of play is controlled by how much the axel bolts are tightened, and there is a sweet spot where there is virtually no play and the bearing ins freely...

Also, if you mark the position of the bearing relative to the stator and the rotor, keep the stator and the rotor in the same position as today and remount the bearing but rotate it clockwise by say 180 degrees vs. how it is now, will the noise point also rotate 180 degrees from where it is now? If it does, then it is a bearing issue. If the noise stays in the same spot, it is a motor issue.

[rayivers]

How have I got my money's worth out of a motor with only 13k miles on it

I hear ya !  Hey, it's not like it's a modified motor that's spent much time sucking grit through itself under race conditions.

Ray