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[teddillard]

Absolutely, if they feel rough, they're pretty definitely bad.  It's when they don't feel rough, or you can't really feel the slop that's the problem.  Most of the time if they're 100% clean and free of grease, yes, you can judge them by feel, because any play is pretty obvious. Also it helps if they're outside of wherever they live. 

AH, OK, you didn't use a dial indicator.  (...let's forget about my slang, shall we?    )  I would have used that to measure the run-out on the pulley, first, then after removing the pulley, on the shaft.  That's how you'd find out if you have a warp on either, or play.  When you said you used a micrometer, that's what I thought you were talking about... many levels of confuse I guess.    Anyway, if you could see the slop, then you didn't need to do that I guess.

@ptruchon ... 

[Burton]

In Teds defense he didn't have all the information behind what I didn't show, tried off camera, or didn't include in the original post.

Had I included all the missing information someone would need to better judge my abilities and skill with tools I suspect his post would have been far different.

While it wouldn't have been the way I would have criticized my own video having come upon it the first time the information was accurate given what he knew.

I have worked on many things where if you cannot mess up ... I don't think I have ever posted any of those to my youtube channel outside maybe my valve adjustment videos for the ninja 250. But I have took small electrical devices with hundreds of parts apart before and reassembled them to fix something following proper procedure as not to mess it up.

This was just different. Most people who know me personal have heard me say "the right tools for the right job" when talking about what they are doing. While I am doing something I often stop myself when having difficulty and think what would be the idea tool to use. In this case I relied on my experience of taking things slow with tools you shouldn't use to do it to get a job done which shouldn't take that long with the right tools.

I posted the video not as a true "this is how you do it," video but a "look what it takes to get this thing apart and here is how I did it" video.  When I do true how to videos I spend one part of the series of videos just going over the tools and why you use them.

If you look at the motor post video there isn't any major damage because I took my time. There is more "character" on the outside of the motor from when it went down into a rock pit on a racetrack in the past.

Moving on ... now to wait for WWB to get back to me so I know the damage. If they bearings are indeed special in some way making them cost a small fortune I might generic and start saving up for a sealed motor and go the ATF route for enhanced cooling. (since it will be streamlined in the future)

Anyone have suggestions to clean up the crud in the motor?
I was thinking of using a small clean soft tooth brush, and an air compressor on low PSI as I rather take the armature (shaft assembly) out if I use higher PSI. ... And I don't know the best way of doing that yet but there is paper wedged in between the armature and the electromagnets.

[teddillard]

Well, I've got to say, I did enjoy seeing the guts of the motor, even it it was between moments of panic and tears.   

I'm really interested to hear what the report is on those bearings.  Like I said, they started out as the best of the best, yet they failed - what's that about?  The only thing I can figure is that they possibly lost some of the ceramic coating - is that even possible?  I'm not at all familiar with the tech there. 

As far as the "how to do it" and stuff, I shudder to think of what you might comment if you went through my "blowing stuff up" video section.   

...as far as my "tone"?  ...yeah, whatever.  If the guy's read my blog, he should be used to it. 

[Farfle]

Thanks for the video! And I wouldnt do a ceramic bearing, its not the right tool for that job. If you need 30-60 thousand rpm for a huge amount of revolutions in a dental tool or high speed inrunner then they are absolutely the right tool for the job, however for a zero motor, just buy a quality SKF or Timken sealed bearing. Ceramics are excellent for average load, ultra high-heat, ultra high speed, ultra clean operation, of which a zero is none of. Ceramics tend to abrade their surfaces away unless they are in sterile environments, whereas a standard hard steel bearing will "pocket" impurities, and continue running mostly unaffected.

[Justin Andrews]

...as far as my "tone"?  ...yeah, whatever.  If the guy's read my blog, he should be used to it. 

Your not originally from Yorkshire are you Ted? 

[teddillard]

No, Boston.  Kind of the same thing, I reckon.   

Thanks for that info Farfle, that's pretty interesting.  So, why did they put in ceramic in the first place?  Was this motor modified non-OEM? 

[Patrick Truchon]

In Teds defense he didn't have all the information behind what I didn't show, tried off camera, or didn't include in the original post.

Had I included all the missing information someone would need to better judge my abilities and skill with tools I suspect his post would have been far different.

While it wouldn't have been the way I would have criticized my own video having come upon it the first time the information was accurate given what he knew.

Hi Burton,

You could have been trying to open the motor with a blowtorch or a sledge hammer.  My point was simply that no matter how wrong you were or appeared to be, there was absolutely no need to point it out that way.  You paid for the thing, you can break it if you want; there's nothing morally wrong with that (as long as you weren't misleading others into doing the same thing knowing they'd break theirs, which you obviously didn't).  The video was instructive none-the-less: I was curious to see the inside of the motor no matter how you got it opened!  Thanks again for posting it.

You, sir, take criticism like a gentlemen.  Ted, not so much, but that's not my problem so... moving on.
 

[Burton]

  So, why did they put in ceramic in the first place?  Was this motor modified non-OEM?

See signature

Most of this bike was modified for racing, including the motor bearings.

So now the question is what bearing to buy.

I think these are what I need in SKF http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/160921377379?lpid=82&chn=ps

http://www.skf.com/ca/en/products/bearings-units-housings/ball-bearings/deep-groove-ball-bearings/single-row-deep-groove-ball-bearings/single-row/index.html?prodid=1050250006&imperial=false

JEM Bearing variant with higher tolerances and steel cage
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SKF-6006-2RS-JEM-2RS1-Deep-Groove-Roller-Bearing-/150337201681?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2300cba611


Found a great attached chart about bearing codes

[teddillard]

  So, why did they put in ceramic in the first place?  Was this motor modified non-OEM?

See signature

Most of this bike was modified for racing, including the motor bearings.

Still, I'm wondering why those bearings were used, in light of Farlfe's comments.  Was that a standard mod, or one particular guy's idea? 

[teddillard]

I guess the point of my question was more about the advantages and disadvantages of ceramic bearings and the types available - not as much who done it and what they said.  So I did some reading, and put this together:
https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/04/27/taking-a-look-at-ceramic-bearings/

Apparently, yes, they're used where you want incrementally higher performance, but there's a pretty huge range of types and quality points.  There's also a lot of hype associated with them, especially in the bicycle market. 

This quote is from one of my sources:     

Solid Ceramic: The ceramic balls are solid ceramic silicon nitride. A cheaper ceramic bearing uses steel balls with a thin ceramic layer. The elastic and thermal property difference between steel and ceramic cause the ceramic to split and separate from the steel portion of the ball on these less expensive look a likes.

Avoid this type of ceramic ball bearing.

My personal opinion (which, again, shouldn't be trusted) is that first, your bearings failed, so it would seem they aren't the type you want to replace them with.  My blind guess is that they were the less-awesome flavor, or a cheap version and that's why they failed.  I've never had any experience with a defective bearing, period, so I tend to rule that possibility out. That doesn't mean I wouldn't go back to the supplier and tell them their stuff failed, whatcha gonna do about it, right?

Second, it really doesn't seem like it's worth the additional expense for little or no measurable improvement.  To me.  In my opinion.  Which means not too much, since I haven't used or tested them.   

In any case, it sounds like there's a lot of ceramic BS out there, and very little hard fact in the racing world at least.  One guy claimed a 4% improvement in output on a gas motor.  I don't know if you've built gas motors, but I have, and 4% is crazy talk.   

update: I just found a study with some charts.  "In tests, all-ceramic bearings consumed less than 25% of the power used by ceramic-metal-hybrid and all-metal bearings."

[kensiko]

Well, I've got to say, I did enjoy seeing the guts of the motor, even it it was between moments of panic and tears.   

Why panic, why tears ? It's just a motor. I saw your criticism on FB about getting close to a truck to see the increase in range. I felt you were harsh but I understood the reason and respect that. But disassembly a motor without proving to everyone your an expert? You put too much.

My father is the best DIY guy example on the planet. He always acts as if he is more poor than the poorest man on the earth. I find it pretty amazing he is still alive today. Of course he did many things without knowing it that much. Of course he injured himself many times. But choose what's best: DIY all the way or LTODI (Let The Others Do It) all your life ? My wife is the best example of LTODI, but she's a women and I accept it. But from a man, I prefer the other choice. If you do nothing in your life you learn nothing. Humans did not invent things with all the budget and the top tools, we did it in our garages or in the shed or with the cows.

Anyway, I thought I would share my opinion and support Burton here.

[teddillard]

Can we keep this on-topic?  Do you want me to delete my posts?  At this point I'm happy to.  Burton addressed my comments, and gave some more, and very important context to his video here which he hadn't before.  Besides.  That was an attempt at humor.

As far as "supporting Burton" goes, we've had several lengthy and pleasant conversations, appropriately in PMs, about my post and his response. There's no "sides" here, at least as far as I'm concerned. 

And yes, it is painful for me to watch stuff like that.  I literally can't, after a point.  I too emphatically support DIY work, as I clearly said, but a huge part of DIY is learning how to do things correctly, and a lot of that is trial and error.  But there's stuff you just don't do - just ask your father, I bet he'd agree.  I could care less if you do it with your own stuff, but don't encourage other people to do it and say everything's going to be cool.  You can tell me he had that "don't do this" disclaimer on it, but my take on the video didn't really support that message. 

Funny, that's what my son's reaction was to that thread on the FB page (which I left, pretty much because of that post):  "I don't care what kind of stupid crap you do to yourself, but don't try to encourage other people to do it."  And this is from a 21yr old kid.  A damned fine mechanic, too.  I taught him everything he knows.   

Can we talk about bearings, instead of what a jerk I am please?  Go ahead and start a "Ted's a Big Jerk" thread if it makes you feel better.   

[Doug S]

Ted, speaking as one who's been on the other side of one of your rants, nobody thinks you're a jerk. But you clearly have an 11 on your dial (yes, that's a "This is Spinal Tap" reference), and maybe even a 12, and you need to learn to dial it back a few. Turn it down to about a 7 or an 8 and everybody will be good.

So yeah, let's move on.

[teddillard]

Y'know, I keep going back and reading my posts, thinking, hey, I've been drinking a lot of coffee lately, maybe these guys have a point.  I'm thinking, I'll just go back and edit the more strident parts.  But I can't for the life of me figure out what's so offensive. 

12?  Dude.  That post was at about 6.  You want 10, maybe, go read the thread where the Zero noob owner is talking about how cool it is to draft trucks on the Facebook page.  Having a kid who's relatively new to riding, and imaging him reading that and thinking it was something he should try, yeah, I got pretty pissed off.  It didn't help that a pro-rider friend of a good friend was killed on a motorcycle the night before.  Of course, my son had a pretty funny reaction to it, to just dismiss the guy as an irresponsible idiot, thankfully, and I felt I'd done at least something good raising the boy. 

The points I made are really good advice for anyone trying to learn how to wrench.  Burton's response added to that, and he said there was some stuff he learned as well.   

It's funny, the one guy who agreed with me is a mechanic and a builder. 

Yes, you were on the other side of one of my "rants", when I posted a simple, and just-about-as-tactful-as-I-know-how-to-be comment disagreeing with some nomenclature you used - and your response was immediately defensive and personal, and escalated from there.  Yeah, once someone takes it there, I'm bound to rant.  Whatever.

Pretty much the overriding impression I have of this group, as it's evolved since I first joined in 2009 or something, is you guys want to have pleasant conversations where you all agree and aren't too concerned if you're passing on good information or not.  Unfortunately, in spite of the lecture I got about civility and education styles by ptruchon, I don't agree that that's how you learn how to do things right, nor do a lot of people who really have worked their asses off to learn their shit express themselves so nicely. And as I said to ptruchon privately, I don't have the energy to tiptoe around fragile egos.  For the record, where I come from, it's not unusual for people with strong opinions to express them passionately.  But, that's Boston.  Kidding aside, there is a culture here, and I'm fully aware it can be baffling to people not used to it.  Especially Canadians.     (That was an attempt at self-depricating humor.)

So yeah, probably not a good fit.   I'll leave you to your discussion, such as it is. I would have loved to learn some more about bearings and how this motor went back together, and maybe if I step down, I can eventually read that. 

How was that?  I figure you think it was at 13.5 or so.

By the way, if you want to see how a video should be done, look no further than Ben Nelson's work with his Leaf/Vectrix pack.  He, too is doing this the first time, but he's showing perfect working habits and skills, and not taking (or showing) shortcuts. 
https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/04/28/how-to-work-on-stuff/

[Justin Andrews]

Who does'nt like a bit of robust conversation now and again. 

For the record, I did'nt see Ted being unfriendly, quite the opposite.