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[Burton]

Warning! Danger! Don't even try this if you thought for a second you couldn't!

That said ... on to the good stuff. For those of you not in the Facebook Owners group I will post this here for you.

Background:
There is a very slight wobble in the sprocket on my motor, it is a ventilated motor with very expensive ceramic bearings. I was told the bearings or the shaft are at fault and the only way to really tell is to remove the motor. So I did ... without removing the swing arm mind you.

Then I went to taking the motor apart.
Again DON'T DO THIS! lol



And no, it is not under warranty this thing is so modified it is nuts ... oh and it was raced for about 600 miles.

[teddillard]

You're gonna think I'm a total jerk, but that was one of the most painful things I've watched on Youtube.     The title should be, "Using all the wrong tools to do it wrong".  I had to stop watching half-way through. 

So, a little advice.  Is there a reason you didn't loosen the pulley end bolt when the motor was in the bike and the drive belt was still on the pulley?  That works really well, using the rear wheel instead of manking up your pulley.  Yes, "manking" is a word. It is derived from "mank", or "manky".

The cir-clip and retaining clip for the bearing isn't some magical special thing.  It's pretty much standard for any shaft and bearing assembly, so yeah, you've seen it on your motorcycle anywhere you've had a shaft, a bearing and a seal.  Go spend $30 and get some cir-clip pliers.  Prying the retaining clip out with a screwdriver is just going to mank up the slot and make it so you'll have nothing to hold the bearing and seal in place with.

While you're at it, go buy a gear puller.  Prying stuff off with any variety of random tool you have around not only breaks said random tools, but it manks up whatever you're pulling.  Guaranteed.  Gear pullers apply even pull in the same direction as the shaft.  So if you didn't warp your pulley in your effort to make your pulley stop wobbling, you're just lucky. You know how you realized that your faceplate on your motor tipped down on the opposite side you were prying up on?  That's what I'm talkin' bout.  You'd use the puller for the pulley, but also for the faceplates of the motors. 

ANY time you're prying metal, USE SOFTER MATERIAL to pry.  Yes, i'm shouting.  NEVER use steel to pry aluminum.  I flinched every time you went near that thing with a damned screwdriver, and when you described twisting the screwdriver instead of prying?  I had to turn it off. 

I have several brass rods I use as drifts, and pry bars, and I use plastic bicycle tire irons as well, for small parts.  I use wood, too.  At the MOST, use aluminum.  As a general rule, whenever you're prying some assembly?  You're already Doing it Wrong.

I'm not going to pretend I didn't do stuff the way you're doing it at some point in my life, but that's how I learned how just plain dumb it is.  You think you can cheat stuff, you just break stuff, and if you get away with it once, don't think you're anything but lucky.  I totally applaud any DIY work like this and any attempts to learn, but for the love of f8ck, try to approach it with some degree of professionalism - at least if you decide to film it and post it on Youtube and various forums. 

...going back to try to watch the rest, now. 

edit: I made it all the way to where you started prying against the heat sink.  Then I started crying. 

[rayivers]

Burton,

Thanks very much for taking the time to shoot, edit, and post that video.  I was very curious about the insides of the Zero motor, especially the pass-throughs for the large feed cables which have more surface (sealing) area than I thought.  I'll also be careful about water in the encoder area.

Is this the ventilated motor?  It looks like one side cover's been opened up to allow air into the center of the rotor, then it shoots out... where?  Through the windings and back out the entry holes?  It must drop the temps quite a bit.

What replacement bearings will you be using?

Ray

[teddillard]

One more comment.  Spinning the bearings for "feel", and wiggling them?  Not really the approved method for determining a bearing's health.  The standard practice, once you've torn an assembly down to the bearings is to simply replace the bearings since they're cheap. 

Which of course begs the question...  do you have a bearing puller and a press, or a race and seal kit?  Because if you don't, you a) won't be able to get the old bearings off without damaging them, and b) won't be able to put the new bearings on without - you guessed it - damaging them. 

I thought this thread was worthy of a blog post.  I've linked tools there, if you're interested in doing it right.

https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/how-not-to-work-on-stuff/

[teddillard]

Also, a question about the whole "wobble" thing.  Whoever told you the only way to check it was to take the whole thing apart is (at the most politest I can possibly be) completely and pitifully wrong.  And it's a "pulley", not a "sprocket".   

Did you mike the pulley, then the shaft?  (edit: using a dial indicator with a mag base to check runout) Again, before even pulling the motor out, and I'd have miked it even with the belt on so I could have seen if there was deflection when you muckled on to the wheel.  Then you pull the pulley off and mike the play on the shaft - again trying to deflect it (kind of harder to do, probably have to resort to a rubber mallet to see how much it deflects).

Or, you could go semi-hack and just replace the pulley.  My $10 says your old one is warped, and even if you're able to get this poor thing back together you're still going to have the wobble, and not be any the wiser than you were when you started.  You'll just have added the question, "did I damage the bearings or the seats or the shaft?" to the equation.

[Burton]

You're gonna think I'm a total jerk, but that was one of the most painful things I've watched on Youtube.     The title should be, "Using all the wrong tools to do it wrong".  I had to stop watching half-way through. 

I completely understand what you mean. "Use the right tools for the right job."

So, a little advice.  Is there a reason you didn't loosen the pulley end bolt when the motor was in the bike and the drive belt was still on the pulley?  That works really well, using the rear wheel instead of manking up your pulley.  Yes, "manking" is a word, and it was coined for guys like you.  LOL

Yes, you cannot access the bolt while on the bike. Trust me I thought of that and even went so far as to ask Terry how to remove it knowing he did it before. His advice was to bolt the wheel to a wood table and run the belt between the motor and wheel and do it that way. I didn't feel like removing the swing arm just to try this out.

Oh, and it is good to be king

The cir-clip and retaining clip for the bearing isn't some magical special thing.  It's pretty much standard for any shaft and bearing assembly, so yeah, you've seen it on your motorcycle anywhere you've had a shaft, a bearing and a seal.  Go spend $30 and get some cir-clip pliers.  Prying the retaining clip out with a screwdriver is just going to mank up the slot and make it so you'll have nothing to hold the bearing and seal in place with.

Who said I didn't use cir-clip pliers to remove it? (see attached image below) I haven't worked on my ninja 250 in about 6 months since getting my zero having put on 8400 miles in that time. I use to always be working on the bike and would have remembered where my random thought was leading me but decided to go with it anyway.
I didn't use them on the large retaining C-ring as there were no holes. On those I have always used very light force with a pick tool or a small screw driver since typically the pattern at the ends is that of a saw blade. At least the ones on my forks are.

While you're at it, go buy a frikkin gear puller.  Prying stuff off with any variety of random tool you have around not only breaks said random tools, but it manks up whatever you're pulling.  Guaranteed.  Gear pullers apply even pull in the same direction as the shaft.  So if you didn't warp your pulley in your effort to make your pulley stop wobbling, you're just lucky. You know how you realized that your faceplate on your motor tipped down on the opposite side you were prying up on?  That's what I'm talkin' bout.  You'd use the puller for the pulley, but also for the faceplates of the motors. 

Who says I didn't try one first? (see attached image) The fins were too fine and got in the way of all three of my gear pullers. I would have loved to use my gear pullers since they are far simpler to use than the method I used.

ANY time you're prying metal, USE SOFTER MATERIAL to pry.  Yes, i'm shouting.  NEVER use steel to pry aluminum.  I flinched every time you went near that thing with a damned screwdriver, and when you described twisting the screwdriver instead of prying?  I had to turn it off. 

I have several brass rods I use as drifts, and pry bars, and I use plastic bicycle tire irons as well, for small parts.  I use wood, too.  At the MOST, use aluminum.  As a general rule, whenever you're prying some assembly?  You're already Doing it Wrong.

While I was doing it I was trying to make sure I wasn't doing serious damage. I know, I know any damage is serious damage. My first though was to use wood and I wish I had some type of plastic.

But I would agree on the softer material use and never heard of the prying it rule but it also makes sense.

I'm not going to pretend I didn't do stuff the way you're doing it at some point in my life, but that's how I learned how just plain dumb it is.  You think you can cheat stuff, you just break stuff, and if you get away with it once, don't think you're anything but lucky.  I totally applaud any DIY work like this and any attempts to learn, but for the love of f8ck, try to approach it with some degree of professionalism - at least if you decide to film it and post it on Youtube and various forums. 

I believe I made a disclaimer about not doing what I did and the video isn't public but yes it is on this forum.

...going back to try to watch the rest, now. 

edit: I made it all the way to where you started prying against the heat sink.  Then I started crying.

LOL I know this feeling trust me I really do. I have built out my tools for my gas bike over the years to ensure I do things right with careful research and planning. Sadly I didn't find much in the way of taking apart an electric motor, or a zero motor at that. I did ask two people who have taken them apart previously for advice and one mentioned making a jig to make his life easier. No details were given on the jig though or technique.

So yeah, could have researched it more before hand so I could have used the proper tools. I likely would have only had to wait a week or two to find someone who could walk me through it well enough to know what I needed to do with what.

One more comment.  Spinning the bearings for "feel", and wiggling them?  Not really the approved method for determining a bearing's health.  The standard practice, once you've torn an assembly down to the bearings is to simply replace the bearings since they're cheap. 

Most bearings I have ever had go bad will have rough spots in them when rotated. The wiggle test really only works when the bearing is really shot and the inner race is moving freely. These are not cheap bearings, they are ceramic bearings at $300+ each (I know now you are really cringing at what I did)

Which of course begs the question...  do you have a bearing puller and a press, or a race and seal kit?  Because if you don't, you a) won't be able to get the old bearings off without damaging them, and b) won't be able to put the new bearings on without - you guessed it - damaging them. 

I have bearing pullers, a couple of them actually. They will not work on the encoder side without making an aluminum plug to protect the part the encoder reads on the shaft tip as it is right in the center of the shaft >_<

The bearing inside the first plate I took off doesn't have both races accessible to remove the bearing. Only the inner race and most of the side shields can be seen from the side I would have to push from (see attached picture)

I wouldn't have tried to remove the bearings or put new ones in without consulting with someone who has done it before and I have already been in contact with this person and they know I might have to replace them.

I have replaced bearings in the past and know how delicate you must treat them when applying pressure but I don't have a proper press at my house yet as I always used the one at work at the time. A press has been on my buy list for a while now and I was just waiting for a reason to pick one up.

I thought this thread was worthy of a blog post.  I've linked tools there, if you're interested in doing it right.
https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/how-not-to-work-on-stuff/

Oh look, I am famous. I have updated the title of the video just for you.

Also, a question about the whole "wobble" thing.  Whoever told you the only way to check it was to take the whole thing apart is (at the most politest I can possibly be) completely and pitifully wrong.  And it's a "pulley", not a "sprocket".   

You are assuming I don't have other videos I used for diagnosis with the person who informed me there was either a shaft or bearing problem with the motor. With the motor on there was play in the shaft when belt tension was removed. It isn't suppose to do that.

Did you bother to try miking the pulley, then the shaft?  Again, before even pulling the motor out, and I'd have miked it even with the belt on so I could have seen if there was deflection when you muckled on to the wheel.  Then you pull the pulley off and mike the play on the shaft - again trying to deflect it (kind of harder to do, probably have to resort to a rubber mallet to see how much it deflects).

I have a two lav mics going when I ride. One faces the right side of the motor and the other is in my helmet. I have used the one on the right side on the left with the belt / pulley / etc. There is play in the shaft and my other videos, also hidden and not public or published anywhere, show this This whole thing started because at lower speeds, < 15mph, it felt like I was going over cobble stone and didn't sound right.

Or, you could go semi-hack and just replace the pulley.  My $10 says your old one is warped, and even if you're able to get this poor thing back together you're still going to have the wobble, and not be any the wiser than you were when you started.  You'll just have added the question, "did I damage the bearings or the seats or the shaft?" to the equation.

The pulley is good, checked it as soon as I took it off. That stated I already had another on order with zero before this happened. I suspect it will take them 3 months to get everything I ordered to me.

Shaft seems fine. Micrometer didn't show any bid deviations when measuring it, and given how tight it was I wouldn't expect it to.

The bearing in the plate does have some rough spots when rotating. The bearing still on the shaft on the encoder side does not have any rough spots but I haven't taken it off yet as I am waiting for my contact to get back with me on how best to do it and how best to test them.

[Burton]

Burton,

Thanks very much for taking the time to shoot, edit, and post that video.  I was very curious about the insides of the Zero motor, especially the pass-throughs for the large feed cables which have more surface (sealing) area than I thought.  I'll also be careful about water in the encoder area.

You shouldn't have to worry too much about a stock motor and water in the encoder. But if you feel the bike doing odd things (like pulsing all the time) then it is likely an encoder issue.

Is this the ventilated motor?  It looks like one side cover's been opened up to allow air into the center of the rotor, then it shoots out... where?  Through the windings and back out the entry holes?  It must drop the temps quite a bit.

What replacement bearings will you be using?

Ray

The motor was ventilated by the previous owner since it was used for racing. Yes, it keeps the motor really cool and both sides are opened. The encoder side more so than the opposing site. (see attached picture on last image if you didn't notice the holes before on the plate in question)

Not sure if I will replace the bearings with ceramic ones or simply go with standard ones. A new motor cost $1500 ... ceramic bearings for this thing apparently cost about $1k if I recall. Neither bearings looked like the grease wasn't still sealing them from outside elements.

Not sure what I am going to do yet as I am waiting for my contact to get back with me on further testing since they have done this before. And no Ted, the former contact wasn't the one who told me how to take the motor apart

[Richard230]

I bet that is the way they would work on an electric motor in China or India.     Just get a bigger hammer, pliers and screwdriver.   

I always figured that Tiger was planning to sell the Electric Motorsport GPR-S in Southeast Asia and then realized that the countries there weren't quite ready for high-speed electric propulsion yet.   

[teddillard]

LAV mike?  No, I meant micrometer.

But I see you did check for play, just wondering how.  As for the puller, there's always a way to use a puller.  Sometimes making the brackets you need is more work than just prying and hacking, but I can see three ways to try it just from your video. 

Thanks for changing the title.  Sincerely.  I think I'll link this thread on the post I made as well.  All good points, but yeah - you don't say how to do stuff right or why you're doing it this way?  People are going to make assumptions. 

That kind of money for ceramic bearings is crazy talk. 
http://www.microbluebearings.com/categories/CERAMIC-BALL-BEARINGS/6000-SERIES-CERAMIC-BALL-BEARINGS/ for just the quickest search I could do.

I'd love to see a photo of the motor in the bike if you have one.  It's (further) boggling (what's left of) my mind that you couldn't get the bolt out.  And you have to pull out the swingarm to get the rear wheel off?  What's up with that? 

[Burton]

Ok what is wrong with using an omnidirectional lav mic to mic an already quiet motor for vloging? :/

When the motor was on the bike and the belt removed I applied pressure to the pulley and the whole shaft moved slightly. This was likely the third test done on the bike to try and figure out what was wrong.

Thinking back it is far easier for me to figure out was I should or could have done things. One way of using the pullers could have been to use a wire loop in each hole of the plate. At the time I didn't think of this or I would have.

What were the cost of the bearings back in 2012? Those are current prices. The bearing source was worldwidebearings.com but I am unsure as the exact size but I believe they are 6006 (need to take them off first to measure thickness but they are 55mm x 30mm x ? [and yse I used my micrometer to figure that out but you would likely want me to call it a caliper ])

EDIT: They are 6006RS bearings according to the stamp on side.


Photo requested


The amount of clearance in there was about 1/4" and the bolt head is 3/16" deep.

I took the wheel off because it was in the way and it is far easier to move a swing arm when the wheel wasn't attached. In order to remove the motor the swing arm was put in the full upright position (shock removed) and the first stock charger from the back of the bike removed so it could drop down.

[teddillard]

Nothing at all...  brilliant actually, it's just that I was asking about something completely different. 

Thanks for that photo.  And DAMN that's tight.   

[Burton]

Gotcha. I moved the mic from left to right side (non belt side) because the belt noise (growling etc) was too much over there.

Where you thinking of those automotive stethoscopes?

Yeah, very tight and frustratingly so. It took me a while to figure out just how to remove the motor with the swing arm on the bike as the clearance to get a wrench inside wasn't there for that either.

I could probably remove a motor in about 30 minutes now I have done it once.

In your experience what brand bearings are reliable for this application?

[teddillard]

Based on nothing but 40 years of habit, I love me the Timkin, but I really don't know, and shouldn't be trusted.    We discovered industrial bearings a long time ago - same stuff, sometimes better, for pennies on the dollar of what motorcycle supply shops would sell you. 

It could be that they are some special sauce.  What bugs me is that they're ceramic, but if they feel rough they've failed.  How is that possible?  I'd really hesitate to replace them with anything less awesome...  But these here are $95: (weird, it won't take the link, but the link to the main page is above)  Check the measurements to make sure, of course.  These show 30mm Bore, 55mm OD, 15mm Width

No, when I said "miking" I meant putting a dial indicator on it with a mag base:



...sorry, again, 40 years of (bad) habit. 

[Burton]

In my limited 20 year experience working with bearings if they feel rough when you rotate them they are bad. Normally I found if I removed the sides I would find a couple bearings with flat spots in these cases. Sure they might rotate still but they are now a point of future failure.

I took the bearing out of the plate, it is 13mm so 6006RS (rubber sealed) it is. And, the inner race does have a bit of play on it as well as the aforementioned roughness when rotating. The other bearing is smooth ... very smooth. I will likely replace both anyway and have an extra one on the side as an emergency backup. (kind of like I do with tires I order them in pairs)

I have sent an email out to WWB to see what a quote would be on these bearings since they are the original manufacture.

Can't say I have ever heard of the term 'miking' before but I bet my father has since he has been working on large vehicles since he was 16. So far I haven't had a need for a dial indicator with my rotors as it is pretty easy to tell when I need to replace the ones on my bikes and I barely ever ride my car.

I can see where having one for something like this would have been useful. I am not sure if it would have picked up the play in the shaft though since it required force be applied to it first.

[Patrick Truchon]

I thought this thread was worthy of a blog post.  I've linked tools there, if you're interested in doing it right.

https://evmc2.wordpress.com/2015/04/25/how-not-to-work-on-stuff/

Hi Ted,

Since I bought my ZeroDS 2013 last year, I started reading both your blog, and this forum and I've come to recognize and respect both your name and Burton's.

In the past, I was a high school Math and Physics teacher, and trust me, I know what it's like to see people do things "the wrong way" (over and over again).  The hard part of that job was to give feedback in ways that help people learn best.  That's what I'd like to comment on here, not about whether Burton did the right thing or not; that, I have absolutely no clue and I trust that you do.

I appreciate the time you took to write your reply to Burton.  You obviously put a lot of thought and effort into spelling out the proper way to do things, not only for him, but for the rest of the group.  That's commendable; that's how science works!

That being said, however, I think the tone of your reply could have been more respectful.  Calling him "this guy" on your blog post and swearing and "shouting" in the main reply on this forum was unnecessary.  To me (and I may be wrong), it seems like you've taken what Burton did a bit personal and let your frustration bleed throughout your entire reply.

I read the entire exchange and the content of your reply has a lot of technical advice (which I assume is "right").  Again, I think that was a helpful thing to do.  The only thing I would have changed is the tone of your delivery.

People tend to learn best when their efforts to learn are validated first, no matter how wrong what they actually did might be.  I remember one of my education professors used the phrase:  give students a "star" and a "wish".  At first, I thought that meant I should sugar coat everything (which I don't like to do).  But I later came to realize that it's about validating what they've done right, and explaining what they could have done better.  For Burton, it's the experimentation (on his own equipment) and sharing it with others that he did right, and all the mistakes he might have made that he could do better.  For you, it's the detailed technical reply that you did right, and the tone that you could have done better.

There's no need to assume from the beginning that you'll be perceived as a "jerk" just for giving feedback.  At least, I hope not.  What would that make me?  ;-)