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[Reaper]

Another question if I may fellas,

I saw with both the Sevcon PMAC controller and the Kelly 48301, I need a contactor.  There's a LOT of different contactors out there and the price varies WIDELY.

I intend on building a 48v system and with a 300 amp peak motor does that mean that I need a 48v 300a contactor?  Normally open or normally closed?  

I don't mean to appear dense, but what kind of contactor do I need and why do I need it?

I'll probably be rockin' the 48301 controller here: http://www.kellycontroller.com/mot/KellyKBLUserManual.pdf

Thanks again everyone for the help.

[picasso]

I'd go with the Kilovac EV200. You'll need 12volt for the coil side of it. It's what is used in the Tesla.

[Reaper]

Awesome, thanks for the response.  12 volt it is.  Do you happen to know what kind of amperage those are capable of?  (In case I could get a generic version on ebay for less $$$)

Thanks a lot.

[frodus]

What controller did you decide on?

If you use a Kelly you have to set the contactor output to 100%... it PWM's the output and an EV200 doesn't like it. The EV200 has a contactor economizer on it to decrease the hold current automatically.... also has a built in diode. The Kelly is 24V if I remember correctly, but the EV200 takes up to 32VDC.

I would NOT get a "copy" of the EV200, you can get them on EBAY for under $70, and they're great contactors. They will BREAK 2000A under a fault, they'll do 500A continuous and over 300VDC. Plus, they're completely sealed from the weather.

[Reaper]

That's great.  Thanks for the response!

[Reaper]

What controller did you decide on?

If you use a Kelly you have to set the contactor output to 100%... it PWM's the output and an EV200 doesn't like it. The EV200 has a contactor economizer on it to decrease the hold current automatically.... also has a built in diode. The Kelly is 24V if I remember correctly, but the EV200 takes up to 32VDC.

I would NOT get a "copy" of the EV200, you can get them on EBAY for under $70, and they're great contactors. They will BREAK 2000A under a fault, they'll do 500A continuous and over 300VDC. Plus, they're completely sealed from the weather.

I'm sorry I didn't answer your initial question.  I've gotta rock the Kelly controller.   I've done A LOT of web research and it seems like that their initial line was hit or miss.  LOTS of problems with excitation pattern, incorrect ratings, excessive noise, overheating failures... all of that.  I have read many posts and even wrote the company themselves indicating that this issue has been resolved.  We shall see.  I am at least encouraged to know that there are a couple of youtube videos of people having no problems with their kelly controllers.  I expect mine to work.

If not, I'll pester them until it does

[frodus]

they're still underpowered, we tested 3 different ones on a dyno recently..... current nosedived after 1-2 seconds. Another controller we put on there put continous current up until the motor was almost at base RPM then it started to decrease. Just make sure you got double what you think you need.

[Reaper]

I haven't bought it yet...

But then let me ask you another question.  Does the Sevcon fare better?  I've heard equally as atrocious things about them, including horrible shuddering at start and the (in my opinion inexcusable) lack of being able to program the controller by any other means than their expensive hand calibrator.

Getting double the required current isn't an option for me, I am not funded in any other way other than my own personal savings and it's cost prohibitively expensive.  I want to be done.

Kelly KBL48301, 48v 300amp = 449 USD

Kelly KBL72601, 72v 600amp = 1200USD!!!!  Holy sh**!!!  This single controller costs the entire price of my EV project thus far if I were to start over!

WOW.  I'd rather send back 10 controllers to get modified until it performs as advertised. 

And the goal of this project is to create something functional.  It doesn't have to be incredibly powerful.  If it has a little over golf cart speed I am still interested.  I am not particularly a speed demon.

[frodus]

Lets back up a little...

What motor did you decide on? I thought you were getting a mars 0709? Thats a brushed motor. Those are both brushless controllers.....

If I were you, on a budget, get an 0709 and an alltrax 7242, magura throttle, EV200, some 400A fuses and be done with it... its proven. The kelly controllers will be underpowered, they say 600A, they mean 600A for .5seconds. Alltrax however can hit that and hold that current for longer. I don't have direct experience with sevcon.

[Reaper]

Sure thing.

I have a Mars brushless motor 24-36 volts, 48 volts max.  I believe it's this:  http://www.newkellycontroller.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_63&products_id=29

Brushless motor, hall sensor assembly... everything.

I got it off of ebay from an EV part supplier business for $311.  He had a flawless feedback rating. I rejoiced in getting quite the bargain...

I was dismayed that the controller would run my $500.  Damn.  But I made my peace with that...

I really didn't want the parts to run any more than $1000 TOTAL.   And that's top end.  This is because entire kits can be purchased from cloudelectric.com and electricmotorsport.com for that price.  I could accept the expensive controller because even with that motor, controller, contactor, fuses, throttle... we're still under a grand. 

Another issue is cost vs. ICE motorcycle cost.  With local want ads and/or craigslist, I could easily score a bike for around that price.  As a matter of fact I just saw one that tempted me BADLY, but I know that if I don't finish this now, it won't get finished EVER.

So I am financially constricted but also in the confines of making sure that I see this project through and not put it off anymore.  If I put it off this time, I might not ever get back to it.

[Reaper]

I just read that a person that Kelly controllers had FAILED on a person before.  That can be dangerous.

I might be changing my mind about that Sevcon.  Even if it's slower... I could fix that with proper gearing right?  What if I gave it a 14 tooth drive sprocket for example?

[frodus]

Can you link me to where you saw the Sevcon having trouble with brushless? There is cogging with brushless because there's a magnet on the armature.... is that what it was? Also, I heard the kelly was noisy with the brushless because it uses trapezoidal waveforms.

I think Sevcon and Kelly are really the only two that I can think of that are readily available for BLDC motors..... All I'm saying is that if you get a kelly, make sure you get a little extra current capability. It'll work, but you might be disappointed.

[Reaper]

Can you link me to where you saw the Sevcon having trouble with brushless? There is cogging with brushless because there's a magnet on the armature.... is that what it was? Also, I heard the kelly was noisy with the brushless because it uses trapezoidal waveforms.

I think Sevcon and Kelly are really the only two that I can think of that are readily available for BLDC motors..... All I'm saying is that if you get a kelly, make sure you get a little extra current capability. It'll work, but you might be disappointed.

Sure thing.

This guy said that he had problems not limited to be including very bad shuddering at low RPMs: http://www.pocketbikeplanet.com/frontpage/index.php?p=vB45986

And that's confirmed by a guy who finished a full conversion using the same combination that I am using here: 24 Electric Kawasaki EPX

I've all but dismissed Kelly because during some research that I did last night, people said that the controller FAILED on them mid flight nearly causing an accident.  UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES IS THIS ACCEPTABLE.  I'll take a lower speed as long as it's more durable and more dependable.

I have it direct from Kelly controls that their controller operates now in either sinusiodal or trapezoidal excitation.  ... But this comes from the people trying to sell you the controller.  Of course I am sceptical.

It's going to be 500 dollars either way.  Really, this first conversion is just a prototype.  If it works the next version will be more aggressive.

[frodus]

well, I haven't heard a ton of problems with sevcon at all. I think the shuddering has more to do with the fact that he might have wired the hall sensors wrong... which would cause the shuddering he's talking about. Read this thread, sounds like the same guy:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5521&p=82783&hilit=brushless+sevcon#p82783

He sounds a bit quick to jump to conclusions.

ALL of the people I've heard using the PMAC mars motor had no issues with the sevcon when wired correctly. Matching the hall sensors is likely the issue. Just make sure there's a return policy. The programmer can be rented from electricmotorsport or thunderstruck.

[Reaper]

well, I haven't heard a ton of problems with sevcon at all. I think the shuddering has more to do with the fact that he might have wired the hall sensors wrong... which would cause the shuddering he's talking about. Read this thread, sounds like the same guy:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5521&p=82783&hilit=brushless+sevcon#p82783

He sounds a bit quick to jump to conclusions.

ALL of the people I've heard using the PMAC mars motor had no issues with the sevcon when wired correctly. Matching the hall sensors is likely the issue. Just make sure there's a return policy. The programmer can be rented from electricmotorsport or thunderstruck.

That's fantastic, thanks Frodus.  Can I still roll with the EV200 contactor on a Sevcon system?  I can't see why not.... but perhaps I am missing something.